Point shooting...4 hour syllabus

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I was recently in Sweden where I did three seperate training classes for Swedish military and police instructors. One was for 3 days, the other two were for about 4 hours each.
Here is a brief outline of what was accomplished in one 4 hour hour class for 6 students......

1) History of Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate.

2 Defination of the term instinctive and how it relates to point shooting.

3) Basic PS drill from Fairbairn's square stance. Both with single shots and two round bursts.

4) Repeat drill with one foot forward.

5) Explain why movement is so vital. Repeat # 4 while rapidly closing in with 4-6 round bursts.

6) Fire 5-6 round bursts while backing up.

7) Zipper/vertical tracking drill. Both stationary and moving in. Explain that this is yet another way of getting the hands to follow the eyes.

8) Two shots to the chest, two shots to the head drill. Done without pause.

9) Multiple target drill, done while on the move.

10) Principles of angle/pivot shots. Work up to marching drill.

11) Lateral movement drill...left and right.

12) Putting it all together drill. Rapidly firing while moving in/right/left/back/in until gun runs dry.

13) Explain how distance dictates "technique" and now we will work on extreme close quarters techniques. Show 3/4 hip technique.

14) Half hip. Both from ready position and from the holster.

15) Show shortcomings of commonly taught retention position techniques. then show 1/4 hip from a fast draw.

16) Explain why Applegate preferred to thrust the muzzle into opponent, as opposed to doing a retention position shot. Show why with the semi auto you must pull pistol back after the strike.

17) Repeat drill after striking with open hand strikes, knee kicks and other unarmed combat methods.

18) Finish with "putting it all together drills"


All drills techniques are done from 0-7 yards. Accuracy standard is groups which can be covered by the outstreached hand, but fist size groups are the norm.
We went through about 1500 rounds for the 4 hour class ( 5 students) and 6,000 round for the three day class ( about 19 students, for the first two days, then about 10 for the third. We also coverd PS with the MP 5 sub gun on both semi and fully automatic fire.

Questions and comments are most welcome.

PS..My friend fimed both the three day class and the 4 hour class which I have just described. A video will be available for interested LE/Military instructors in the near future for cost.
I will also be teaching at a Mass LEO conference next month. I'll be covering both handgun and patrol rifle/carbine.
 
After reading an article @ http://www.gutterfighting.org/ccmythvsmyth.html I have become interested in point shooting. I tried it years ago and it just didn’t click for me, but, after reading the article I have been thinking of giving it another try. I have sort of gotten "in the zone" while shooting clays and .22, after thousands of rounds but never could do any good with a handgun. I'm thinking that part of the reason was because I hadn't had the method fully explained to me and I lacked confidence in PS'ing.

I would like to teach my little girl to PS, in a few years, if, I get to where I can do it. It seems to me that it would be easier to learn PS before you have learned more traditional methods.


I would be interested in any advice you have for me.


Thanks, Horsesense
 
Go to www.glocktalk.com Then click on the Tactics and Training section.
Do a search on my name and look for my two part thread HOW I TEACH POINT SHOOTING.
If you have a copy of kill or Get Killed and Shooting to Live ( Both are avaiable free on the gutterfighting website) it will be easy to follow along.
Please keep me advised of your progress.
Matt.
 
I'd love to, but I've got three classes that I'm already commited to in Louisiana and Mississippi during October. The wife and kids wouldn't take to kindly to another week on the road.:(
 
Thanks Matt,


I'll let you know how I do.

I haven't yet had the time to read your post, but I did read a post at Glock Talk, during a break at work, there seems to be a bit of controversy requiring P&S, however, it seems logical to me and well worth giving an honest try. One of the guys, who opposes it, stated that during a hot CQ fight caught on tape that the cops were point shooting and missing, that same scenario could be given as a reason why you should practice point shooting.

If this works, I intend on teaching my daughter how to point shoot before she learns to use the sights. I want her to have the ability to point shoot as her base skill and then build on it, because, Lord forbid, if she ever found herself in a position where she didn’t have time to "draw a bead" she would (as the cops in the video) have to point shoot.
 
Horsesense....those cops who missed were most likely trained in nothing but aimed fire. yet when they were caught in an up close situation they did not use it. Most likely because there was not enough time.
Which is the case in the vast majority of gunfights.
Perhaps if they were actually trained in point shooting they may have done better.
No matter. Try the system for yourself and make up your own mind.
What a concept..thinking for one's self!!!!!!
 
Point Shooting

Hmmmmmmmmmm...Lets see, I have a gun to your wife's head and all you have is 2 to 3" to fire a shot. Are you going to point shoot or are you going to use your sights?

Not to mention, as a court certified expert in use of force for firearms, will I or anyone else testify, in a court of law, as to the proper use of point shooting? Or will we testify using your sights are the proper way to shoot?

Remember, sighting methods are all different. Such as, referrencing the frame, etc to center of mass is sighting, etc.

Point shooting does not have a place in tactical/combat shooting.

That, would be my two cents...
 
One more time....Point shooting is a skill that COMPLEMENTS--- not replaces-- aimed fire. In other words LEARN BOTH!!!!!
Tetlyb..the situation that you describe is a rare bird, but one that I have heard mentioned before on Glock Talk..probably from you!!!
Horsesense..there are many ways some try to discredit point shooting.
Hmmmmm..go over the articles on www.gutterfighting.org as well as the hundreds of posts on GT then read KILL OR GET KILLED and SHOOTING TO LIVE (as well as personal pratice) and then make your own (informed) decision.
PS...with the Calif Hwy Patrol and the Mass. State Police adopting Applegate Point Shooting, a legal basis for the technique is being established.
Then again, if you point shot and hit the guy, let them proved that you did not aim.
Conversely, if you missed, then you can say that you used aimed fire and quote the dismal hit rates of most police departments.
 
"if you point shot and hit the guy, let them proved that you did not aim.

Conversely if you missed, then you can say you used aimed fire"


Are you telling me to lie in a court of law?


That doesn't say well for you, your teaching, or your methods. If I am

missunderstanding then please clarify.
 
I got a chance to read your posts where you describe point how you teach point shooting last night and I intend on giving it an honest try. I hope you didn’t think I was trying to discredit point shooting by my mentioning the cops who point shot and missed, my point was exactly the same as your point…when the you know what hits the fan, despite training, instinct and the will to survive MAY require that you point shoot and, in such a case, you had better know how to point shoot.

I tried point shooting about fifteen years ago, during a day at the range with a friend who picked it up from the Israelis. My friend was a good point shooter but a lousy teacher, so I wrote off the whole point-shooting thing as unreliable and unnecessary. Now years later, perhaps I have a little more wisdom because the pure logic of point shooting and the simple instructions I have found on the internet have enticed me into giving it an honest try.

I'm not yet a full fledged convert so perhaps I can give you a view "from the other side" point shooting is looked upon a dangerous cowboy gimmick, by people who have invested years in training, rightly or wrongly, that is the perception. We are on the same side, but in matters pertaining to life and death you have to expect us to be reluctant. Perhaps if you repackaged point shooting as "aimed suppression fire" or some such thing, you would avoid some of the knee-jerk reactions.

Thank you,
 
Horsesense..no offense taken. You seem willing to give it an honest try, so all power to you. And BTW..these are not my methods. I'm just the messenger.
And yes, I think the term "Target Focus" is a better one than point shooting.
Steve....I have yet to see a court case in which the shooters technique of choice came in consideration.
This is more an item discussed in the gun rags as opposed to reality.

A smart man tells the police nothing until he speaks to his lawyer.
Sad to say in a court of law ( and I have been working in the NYC courts for over 24 years) guilt or innocence is not often the issue that it should be in Utopia.
Remaining silent will prevent many problems should the case come into court.
 
Please refresh my memory. Is "Point shooting" the song and dance where you press the trigger with your middle finger instead of your index finger?
....and you are using your index finger alongside the gun to "point"?
 
Negative. The middle finger aspect is being pushed by a man known as OKJOE, who is active on many other forums.
Point shooting is a close range method of using a firearm without the need for sights/reference.
As I said before, target focus is a more proper, and less confusing, defination.
If you want additional info, see the advice/sources that I gave to Horsesense.
 
I finally got around to giving Point Shooting a try. I am impressed!
I followed the instructions to the letter and intend to practice more. I have no intention of substituting the use of sights, if TIME allows but if I had to shoot quickly I feel I could pull it off. I want to try more and play with it a bit, but I'm thinking it is a good FIRST step for a new shooter and also good for an old timer, because there are times where techniques and practice go out the window and you HAVE to go to the most expedient method of getting led on the target.


PS: next time I an going to try it without my glasses on
:eek:
 
Excellent!!
Send me a PM.
When I taught in Europe last summer some of the officers filmed me.
I just got an e mail stating that a copy of the film is finally being sent to me
I will get it transferred from PAL and, if you send me a SASE, I will send you a copy.
Ditto for Paul Gomez and any other LEO/Military personnel here.
 
Point shooting is used almost exclusively in the sport of paintball, which features ranges less than 20 yards.

Aiming is just too slow!

And point shooting more than accurate enough.

Says something.

As a paintballer, I cannot imagine trying to aim at an attacker less than 12 yards away. There would be no need. I am far more confident in my ability to just hit what I am looking at.
 
I want to thank you for that link to "gutterfighting.org" Matthew. Don't know how I managed to miss your original posting?

After 30 years of target shooting and hunting I've just recently begun experimenting with combat shooting. I see many of my own "discoveries" being reflected in what I read on the gutterfighting site. I've picked up on quite a bit of new information which will be fun to explore in my future range visits. Loved that biography on Jelly Bryce! I'd not heard of him before. :)

From what little I've read of your postings I'd say my philosophy regarding firearms and training coincide to a great degree with what you present. Good work.
 
I have noticed the ton of PS posts on various forums over the past few months and I have stayed away from it because most seem filled with emotions rather than logic.

This is one of the better posts so I'll chime in here with a few comments.

1. My father shoots a .38 spl bodyguard and he points shoot (defn. does not use the sights). In fact his revolver has what are called guttersights. The highest I have ever seen him shoot the gun is from mid chest. Out to about 10 yds he will hit a drinks bottle faster and more consistently than I can. When he shoots my Beretta he is just as awesome. I cannot hit with his .38 unless I really focus.

I remember the first time he held my Beretta he commented on these two things only: the grip of the pistol and its trigger pull. When I told him it had on LPA sights and this gave me good accuracy out to 60-70 yds. he curtly said the gun was a pistol and not a rifle.

2. I became very accurate at firing my gun out to 25 yds. but strangely enough at 5 yds. I was slow and inaccurate. Inaccurate because I would rush the shot and push the pistol so my shots printed low. Why do I rush the shot? Well it is 5 yds. so I should take less time to shoot than at 25 yds.- Right?

3. When I started IPSC shooting I aways connected the far shots esp. those little steel plates but often missed (the A zone) on the second shot on close targets. I was just not balancing this speed and accuracy thing. Then one day an IPSC Master came to me and said let the target detemine how you shoot it. Puzzled I asked him to explain and he invited me to a training session they were having the next weekend. It was there I learned about target focus and the use of the body to align the gun for you. He acknowledged that at farer distances slight variations in alignment on the target will be magnified so the sights became handy then for 'fine tuning'.

4. When buying a gun what is the two most popular advice you get? No one of them is not 'buy a Glock' :p rather it is make sure the gun fits your hand and make sure it points well for you..remember the tip of looking at a spot on the wall, closing your eyes and raising the gun to that spot then opening you eyes and seeing if the gun is on target..?

5. Rob Leatham himself as said he does not always see his sights when shooting..

Conclusion: PS has a place in shooting and may be more important than many people think. In CQB it is unparalleled as the way to shoot. In tapes of CQB shootings that I have seen the criminal never looks at the gun when shooting, his attention is always on the victim.

I now use a freestykew technique where I quickly try to get the gun in the centreline of my body (point A). From there along an arc (maintaining the centreline line hold) to point B (point B is where I have a hard sight focus) I can hit fire the weapon at the target. Obviously for CQB the pistol would be fired before I get to point B, depending on how the target has told me to shoot it.

Hope I have contributed in some way. Thanks!!
:cool:
 
My analysis (FWIW)

Except at contact or near-contact distances where hip shooting is used, the Fairbairn-Applegate point shooting method is still aimed fire. IOW, you still have a visual reference of the gun to the target. You are just not looking at the sights, and the focus is more on the target than the gun. Tighten the focus a little, and you have Jim Cirillo's Silhouette Point. A little more, and you have Jeff Cooper's Flash Sight Picture. All of them are good things to learn.
 
I took the late Daryll Mulroy's class at Plus-P. He tought point shooting in a way that made it fairly easy for me to get the "feel".

He darkened the shooting lane and had the lights turned on at the end of the lane -- about 50 feet down. As you hit the full-size target, you could "walk" your shots in because you could see the light shine through wherever you placed a hole in the target.

As Daryl suggested, and as others have mentioned above, point shooting complements aimed shooting. I usually do point shooting as a warm-up. My biggest problem is that I hate the loose groups point shooting delivers, so I probably move to aimed shooting too soon and don't practice point shooting enough.
 
Great thread and thanks for the ref to "Shooting to Live" and such. Anyone who has had several hundred CQB encounters, no matter when or what equipment or "style", gains a certain credibility most lack.
 
Thanks for the great responses, gentlemen.
Especially thanks to Island Beretta.
Sounds as if your dad really knows his stuff.
I'd like to hear more about his backgroiund.
James Bondrock..I must disagree about ueing the gun as an aiming reference.
One of my instructors was none other than Rex Applegate himself, and I can assure you that the pistol/sights/frame was totally ignored.
Regarding accuracy..pratice the technique properly and one will be amazed how accurate the technique is.
I can shoot out a 3" circle at 3 meters in very rapid double taps, as can many of my students after a few hours of instruction.
 
Matthew:

Are you familiar with Lucky McDaniels "Quick Kill" technique.

Learned it in 82 from the man himself.

To the poster who stated point shooting is not for the street, it's more for the street than aimed fire [ with the caveat that you are reacting to a threat and need to gain back the time and get ahead of the curve, not stay behind it trying to catch up whle taking incoming].


Been using the QK since 82, in a real world environ. Saved my butt on a few ocassions when working with the boys.

Sights, uggh, I've never seen them while actively engaged.

Brownie
 
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