AlfonsDeWolf
Member
Does anyone have a good link for baton laws, especially in the Oregon/Washington area? Also immediate ideas on baton carry?
Collapsable baton
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ClickClickD'oh
Member
Unless you have a significant amount of formal training with one, don't.
In well trained hands to baton can be a useful compliance tool through the use of well directed strikes and locking techniques. In untrained hands in can be either completely and totally useless, or accidentally fatal. I strongly suggest people without the proper training either get a Taser C2 or carry a good canister of OC.
lemaymiami
Member
Very good advice.... there's also the issue of carrying an implement that can be used in an offensive manner (and here it would be unfortunate if witnesses stated....).
Yes, it's a good tool if you're correctly trained -much of the training will focus on what not to hit -and how to employ in a defensive manner to withdraw and/or control an opponent. If you're not in the security/law enforcement realm you're going to have a few problems after using one - unless it's a very clear cut case of self defense...
This one more good time to have a conversation with your lawyer.... before acting, instead of after.
Yes, it's a good tool if you're correctly trained -much of the training will focus on what not to hit -and how to employ in a defensive manner to withdraw and/or control an opponent. If you're not in the security/law enforcement realm you're going to have a few problems after using one - unless it's a very clear cut case of self defense...
This one more good time to have a conversation with your lawyer.... before acting, instead of after.
MillCreek
Member
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270
In Washington, the applicable state law is linked above. Be aware that some cities have stricter laws forbidding carry, either by listing the baton explicitly; considering it to come under the definition of a 'club', which can be listed explicitly; or considering it to come under the catch-all category of a 'dangerous' or 'deadly' weapon. Seattle is a good example of this.
In Washington, the applicable state law is linked above. Be aware that some cities have stricter laws forbidding carry, either by listing the baton explicitly; considering it to come under the definition of a 'club', which can be listed explicitly; or considering it to come under the catch-all category of a 'dangerous' or 'deadly' weapon. Seattle is a good example of this.
AlfonsDeWolf
Member
ClickClick, very good advice as I wouldn't want to be overpowered and have it be used on me. I was thinking more along the lines of dog protection.
Of the people I know who have been attacked by dogs, most stick weapons worked reasonably well, including batons. Obviously, it's better to avoid it having to get to that point, because while there's no assault or murder with dogs, there is animal cruelty and lawsuits (a lot of bad dog owners are bordering on delusional). OC works too, because a dog that can't see you or smell you is going to have a hard time finding you to bite you.
AlfonsDeWolf
Member
I've heard OC is questionable on some dogs?
ive never understood this argument.....how is a baton any more useless than a pipe or a baseball bat?
private citizens dont use a baton in the same sense as LEO......
im guessing if you are using a baton, its because you are being physically attacked and are fearing for your life, not to apprehend a suspect.
if im using a baton, its because someone is attacking me, and i fear for my life.....in which case, im swing away trying to stop the threat as fast as possible.
The best info I have points to this being an urban legend. While there are some breeds or individual dogs that have exceptional pain thresholds, OC alters the chemistry of the eye on contact and triggers an inflammatory response there and on the exposed mucus membranes of the nose. Pain tolerance does nothing against that. Since most dogs pant, it also means the tongue and inside of the mouth gets exposed as well. I suppose if the dog is in a full charge at close range, it might not work because it takes about 1-5 seconds for the reaction to happen. But postal employees carry OC specifically for use against dogs.
OC-Trainer
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glistam summed it up perfectly. The only thing I'll add is that, for reasons I've never fully understood, dog deterrent (which is just EPA approved pepper spray) is (almost) always offered with a stream pattern only. It is very difficult to hit a charging dog, while under duress, in such a small area like the eyes. This fact also contributes to the myth that some dogs are unaffected by it.
IMO dog deterrent should be offered in a conical spray pattern, just like bear spray. (Imagine trying to hit a charging bear with a stream pattern... No thanks!) A simple solution to this is to just use a conical OC spray. Now even if you can't connect with the eyes, you affect the dogs respiratory system too. With their sense of smell, it is absolutely devastating.
Being certified on ASP batons and having trained in Escrima I can attest to the fact that these defensive tools are not the same as a bat or pipe. A collapsable baton doesn't have the mass of most clubs so you have to apply more skill. Because it lacks the mass you have to think about targets differently and what you're trying to accomplish. A heavy nickel plated ASP is still lighter than a 2" diameter piece of pipe or a short bat so just bludgeoning someone isn't going to give you the same results.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
M-Cameron said:
HSO covered very well the shortcomings of the ASP type baton... or one could say, it's intended design function. It simply doesn't have enough mass to be a very effective striking tool, but on the other had still delivers enough force that strikes delivered above the shoulder can be accidentally lethal. The ASP does very good at delivering painful soft tissue bruising. That's good for getting the less than committed individual to give up what ever shenanigans they are up to, but very poor at stopping a serious threat. And that's exactly what the ASP was designed for. It's a tool for gaining compliance (some people will argue they are actually belt portable back scratchers). If serious fighting is expected, other tools are used because they are more effective at stopping a hostile party.
I'm not saying ASP type batons are bad. I'm saying that if you want to carry one, get some proper training because if you don't know where and how to strike you aren't going to be effective... or may be too effective.
a 26" monadanok weigh about the same as 2' of 1/2" DIAM sch 40 black pipe......
strikes to the head, neck, hands, knees will all put an attacker out of commission...
granted, training makes everyone better......but i really have a hard time believing they argument that they are useless as a defensive tool unless you are highly trained in them.
strikes to the head, neck, hands, knees will all put an attacker out of commission...
granted, training makes everyone better......but i really have a hard time believing they argument that they are useless as a defensive tool unless you are highly trained in them.
I think the disconnect is that they are commonly perceived as less-lethal weapons because of how LEO use them, but would be considered deadly force (just like a bat or pipe) in most non-LEO defense situations. This misperception could lead to an untrained person using deadly force on a non-deadly threat, and thus land in legal trouble. Training is not just about how to damage the opponent, but to fully understand the capabilities of the weapon, including the fact that it is deadly when used a certain way.
ClickClickD'oh
Member
If your plan is to defend yourself with a baton by striking someone in the head, just go ahead and carry a gun. Once you've decided to play in the realm of lethal force, might as well just go ahead and use the best tool for the job. Which is of course why I suggested getting proper training. This falls under the "accidentally lethal" portion of my original statement.
And as I previously said, soft tissue strikes (which are the majority of your targets of opportunity on a moving attacker) cause painful bruising that will often cause a non-committed person to stop fighting, but aren't debilitating. That means ineffective at actually stopping a determined attacker. There are places to strike or lock that will stop even a determined attacker and stay in the realm of less than lethal force, but randomly flailing isn't going to get to them except by pure luck. Hence, again, why I suggested getting training.
So yes, in the hands of an untrained user, batons are most often completely ineffective at stopping a determined attacker because of the type of injury they inflict and even worse, can be accidentally lethal if used improperly.
And no, I've never actually seen anyone carry a 26" baton. They are a foot long stowed. That's just silliness. That's mall ninja gear right there.
If the OP is having a problem with dogs, I would suggest a good walking stick or a can of bear spray. Both offer better stand off range than an ASP type baton.
And as I previously said, soft tissue strikes (which are the majority of your targets of opportunity on a moving attacker) cause painful bruising that will often cause a non-committed person to stop fighting, but aren't debilitating. That means ineffective at actually stopping a determined attacker. There are places to strike or lock that will stop even a determined attacker and stay in the realm of less than lethal force, but randomly flailing isn't going to get to them except by pure luck. Hence, again, why I suggested getting training.
So yes, in the hands of an untrained user, batons are most often completely ineffective at stopping a determined attacker because of the type of injury they inflict and even worse, can be accidentally lethal if used improperly.
And no, I've never actually seen anyone carry a 26" baton. They are a foot long stowed. That's just silliness. That's mall ninja gear right there.
If the OP is having a problem with dogs, I would suggest a good walking stick or a can of bear spray. Both offer better stand off range than an ASP type baton.
For dogs a stout walking cane is just the ticket, with a can of OC.
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