Colt 1911A1 while in service through the years...

[Palladan44]

I've always been a fan of the 1911.
I'm curious of the military history of them in a little more detail...

I'm of the understanding that they were made by a few manufacturers during WW2 in quite the numbers. I'm also well aware that many of these same guns stayed in service until the M1911A1 was replaced by the Army around 1985.

Did manufacturers such as Colt, make more of these for the Military in between, or were there so many in surplus from WW2 that all the 1911s used in say Vietnam era (or after) were all surplus WW2 pistols?

The reason I'm a little confused is an acquaintance who was in the service in post Korean war but Pre Vietnam showed me a 1911 that "They issued Me" (quoting him)
It looked to me the exact same as a pre-70 series commercial model with the blued finish and everything, and it sure was well worn. I was a little skeptical for 1) I was not under the impression that the pre series 70 model or Rollmark was EVER used on a Military issued weapon. (I could be wrong. But I have no other reason to doubt my friend)
For 2) I would buy the story more if the finish was parkerized however it was a blued finish, which really had me doubting this was his Army issued 1911.
What were some of the changes made with M1911A1s through their service lives? Did most of them wind up parted out and by the 70s and 80s were many of the issued weapons "parts guns" with maybe only the slide being an original from WW2? Did Colt manufacture new stuff (slides, frames) to supply to the military over the years or was there enough in surplus to cover that?

Most of the examples out there of original Colt 1911A1s from WW2 must have gotten leaked somehow early on....but you just don't see ones from Military service from the 70s or 80s They were either demilled, destroyed and/or are packed away somewhere.

This is sample of what the rollmark looked like on the gun. Not one I thought was ever used in military contracts.

 

[derek45]

Military 1911 pistols issued in World War One were blued.

When they "updated" them to 1911A1 in the 1920's they were parkerized.

 

[Palladan44]

Military 1911 pistols issued in World War One were blued.

When they "updated" them to 1911A1 in the 1920's they were parkerized.

Yup,

 

[dumbhunter]

The best reference for the 1911 I have found is thd book " The Model 1911 and Model 1911A1 Military and Commercial Pistols" by Joe Poyer.

 

[Jim Watson]

Most of the examples out there of original Colt 1911A1s from WW2 must have gotten leaked somehow early on....but you just don't see ones from Military service from the 70s or 80s They were either demilled, destroyed and/or are packed away somewhere.

No. There aren't any. The last quantity procurement of 1911A1s was in 1945. True, there have been some small run Super Duper Elite Ninja Warrior Operator guns - the Kewl Guys love their MEUSOC copies - but the last true GI was probably Colt No 2368781 in 1945 along with the last of the Remington Rand and Ithaca contracts. Plenty on hand for Korea and Viet Nam.
Lots of spare parts procurement until the Beretta came in, but no new guns.

Free www sources are
http://www.coolgunsite.com
https://www.m1911.org


ETA: CMP has been sending out guns with assorted commercial parts installed, maybe after parts contracts for Milspec ran out. Geez, people agonize over an all USGI "Mixmaster" what will they do if they don't read the fine print for a Range Grade.
https://thecmp.org/sales-and-service/1911-information/

 

[FL-NC]

Standard 1911A1 contract pistols stopped being made for the mil in 1945. These same guns saw service obviously for many years after WW2. Many made it home in duffle bags and such over the years from war zones. Some SOF units modified standard pistols - USMC recon units were known for this, as well as a US Army SOF unit. The army unit later procured commercial pistols- Caspian and STI were among those chosen at different times. The USMC unit used a couple of different Kimbers and then later (around 2012) a railed pistol from Colt that had a very short service life before it was replaced by a Glock. Any of these SOF pistols are "rare birds" and none were released for civilian sale, except for the USMC Colt. Other modified 1911 pistols (or commercial versions) have been and are in use by marksmanship teams like the AMU. Claims that someone's personally owned commercial pistol was issued are dubious at best. The persistent internet story that people from some SOF unit were given an allowance to acquire a custom 1911 for duty use just aren't true. Their pistols for duty use regardless of their pedigree were and are US property- they had some of the best armorers in the world, so there was no need to obtain pistols from a different source, plus numerous other reasons.

 

[Slamfire]

I have seen All Guard 1911's made from mixed WW2 parts.



and then I saw All Guard 1911's with WW2 frames and Commercial Colt slides. I assume the Armorer has access to a mix of parts, some WW2, some purchased as spares from Colt.

Something to understand, military 1911's were made from the cheapest materials that met the minimum requirements. The original endurance tests were 6000 rounds and the pistol could be rebuilt, or tossed, after it was sent back to depot. I recently read a post on 1911forum were an owner of a 1917 Colt 1911 said his slide cracked at 10,000 rounds. Well, that's twice the required lifetime of the part.

GI slides were made from 1050 steel. And so are lawn mower blades. This is a cheap, tough, plain carbon material, whose primary characteristics are cheap, cheap, cheap.




The alloy steels available today are superior in every respect to these plain carbon steels.

 

[Palladan44]

Interesting. Good information.
I'm thinking on procuring the book by Joe Poyer.
Thanks for the recommendation on that.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I've always been a fan of the 1911.
I'm curious of the military history of them in a little more detail...

I'm of the understanding that they were made by a few manufacturers during WW2 in quite the numbers. I'm also well aware that many of these same guns stayed in service until the M1911A1 was replaced by the Army around 1985.

Did manufacturers such as Colt, make more of these for the Military in between, or were there so many in surplus from WW2 that all the 1911s used in say Vietnam era (or after) were all surplus WW2 pistols?

The reason I'm a little confused is an acquaintance who was in the service in post Korean war but Pre Vietnam showed me a 1911 that "They issued Me" (quoting him)
It looked to me the exact same as a pre-70 series commercial model with the blued finish and everything, and it sure was well worn. I was a little skeptical for 1) I was not under the impression that the pre series 70 model or Rollmark was EVER used on a Military issued weapon. (I could be wrong. But I have no other reason to doubt my friend)
For 2) I would buy the story more if the finish was parkerized however it was a blued finish, which really had me doubting this was his Army issued 1911.
What were some of the changes made with M1911A1s through their service lives? Did most of them wind up parted out and by the 70s and 80s were many of the issued weapons "parts guns" with maybe only the slide being an original from WW2? Did Colt manufacture new stuff (slides, frames) to supply to the military over the years or was there enough in surplus to cover that?

Most of the examples out there of original Colt 1911A1s from WW2 must have gotten leaked somehow early on....but you just don't see ones from Military service from the 70s or 80s They were either demilled, destroyed and/or are packed away somewhere.
View attachment 1117553
This is sample of what the rollmark looked like on the gun. Not one I thought was ever used in military contracts.

The WW2 manufacturers were Remington-Rand (The typewriter company, not the firearms company), Colt, Ithaca, Union Switch and Signal, and Singer Sewing Machine Co., in I believe that order in terms of production numbers as well. Ithacas are rarer than Colts, but Colts are more valuable because Pony and also because Ithaca struggled to meet quality standards for a lot of its production run. The most common GI 1911A1 is probably the late-model Remington Rand. Arguably those were the best guns - the Colts were better made, but the government got a better price on the Remington-Rands per unit, so in terms of bang for buck, the Remington-Rand might be the winner. You do see some 1911s that were modified to 1911A1 configuration that date back to WW1, some of those were made by Springfield Armory.

All* government-issue 1911s are either WW2 contract or earlier, no new frames were made to contract after 1945. The * is because as noted above there were some small-unit, small-quantity special orders, but you'll not see any of those in civilian hands, and there's probably 100 claimed MEUSOC 1911s at gun shows for every real one MEUSOC had.

After 1945 and until the M9 replaced it, the existing frames were just rearsenaled with new parts by Army and USMC repair depots. While no new frames were made, literally every other part was purchased from contractors in large quantities for repair. I believe through the 50s Colt was the only replacement part supplier, so you will see GI 1911s that were rearsenaled during that time frame that have postwar Colt rollmarks on the slide. There was also a large quantity of replacement slides from non-gun companies in the 1980s that are not rollmarked except for the numeric part code (7790314) and contractor code indicating the maker. Numax Electronics is probably the most common. From a technical standpoint these are through-hardened slides, so they are as shooters superior to the GI slides, but obviously as collectors much inferior.

Most guns have been rearsenaled at least once, and usually the year and the depot where it was done are stamped on the frame. Little care was given to matching up parts - most GI guns are therefore 'mixmasters,' but no less authentically GI guns for that being the case. I have a CMP 1911A1 with a 1943 Colt frame and a 1945 Remington-Rand slide, and that's pretty normal to see (My frame is from the point in the Colt production run where there should be a slide with a matching serial number floating around, but I'll probably never find it). All the parts are interchangeable, so when being rebuilt, the person doing assembly would just grab the next part he needed from a bin. The rebuild was to 1911A1 standard, so they would have been parkerized. It is possible to find a GI-issue 1911A1 with a blued finish, as a pretty small number were made with a Du-Lite blue finish, and if the gun was never refinished, it would retain that.

 

[Palladan44]

The WW2 manufacturers were Remington-Rand (The typewriter company, not the firearms company), Colt, Ithaca, Union Switch and Signal, and Singer Sewing Machine Co., in I believe that order in terms of production numbers as well. Ithacas are rarer than Colts, but Colts are more valuable because Pony and also because Ithaca struggled to meet quality standards for a lot of its production run. The most common GI 1911A1 is probably the late-model Remington Rand. Arguably those were the best guns - the Colts were better made, but the government got a better price on the Remington-Rands per unit, so in terms of bang for buck, the Remington-Rand might be the winner. You do see some 1911s that were modified to 1911A1 configuration that date back to WW1, some of those were made by Springfield Armory.

All* government-issue 1911s are either WW2 contract or earlier, no new frames were made to contract after 1945. The * is because as noted above there were some small-unit, small-quantity special orders, but you'll not see any of those in civilian hands, and there's probably 100 claimed MEUSOC 1911s at gun shows for every real one MEUSOC had.

After 1945 and until the M9 replaced it, the existing frames were just rearsenaled with new parts by Army and USMC repair depots. While no new frames were made, literally every other part was purchased from contractors in large quantities for repair. I believe through the 50s Colt was the only replacement part supplier, so you will see GI 1911s that were rearsenaled during that time frame that have postwar Colt rollmarks on the slide. There was also a large quantity of replacement slides from non-gun companies in the 1980s that are not rollmarked except for the numeric part code (7790314) and contractor code indicating the maker. Numax Electronics is probably the most common. From a technical standpoint these are through-hardened slides, so they are as shooters superior to the GI slides, but obviously as collectors much inferior.

Most guns have been rearsenaled at least once, and usually the year and the depot where it was done are stamped on the frame. Little care was given to matching up parts - most GI guns are therefore 'mixmasters,' but no less authentically GI guns for that being the case. I have a CMP 1911A1 with a 1943 Colt frame and a 1945 Remington-Rand slide, and that's pretty normal to see (My frame is from the point in the Colt production run where there should be a slide with a matching serial number floating around, but I'll probably never find it). All the parts are interchangeable, so when being rebuilt, the person doing assembly would just grab the next part he needed from a bin. The rebuild was to 1911A1 standard, so they would have been parkerized. It is possible to find a GI-issue 1911A1 with a blued finish, as a pretty small number were made with a Du-Lite blue finish, and if the gun was never refinished, it would retain that.

Interesting information, thank you!

 

[Jim Watson]

The Singers are really prewar guns; the "educational order" for 500 placed in 1940.
They showed up in procurement records for December 1941 but Clawson says they were likely assembled in November.

 

[Old Dog]

The reason I'm a little confused is an acquaintance who was in the service in post Korean war but Pre Vietnam showed me a 1911 that "They issued Me" (quoting him)
It looked to me the exact same as a pre-70 series commercial model with the blued finish and everything, and it sure was well worn. I was a little skeptical for 1) I was not under the impression that the pre series 70 model or Rollmark was EVER used on a Military issued weapon. (I could be wrong. But I have no other reason to doubt my friend)
For 2) I would buy the story more if the finish was parkerized however it was a blued finish, which really had me doubting this was his Army issued 1911.

I'm not buying that the pistol is the pic was officially issued by any military branch. The finish and the rollmark is a commercial Colt.

 

[Palladan44]

I'm not buying that the pistol is the pic was officially issued by any military branch. The finish and the rollmark is a commercial Colt.

Thats what I'm thinking.
It really doesn't make any sense, because this guy has another WW2 M1911A1 that could (probably has) have been legitimately issued, but the one he insisted was issued to him was the one with a blued finish and a commercial pre '70 rollmark.
Maybe he has them switched around.....funny what the mind can do over time. Me personally, I'd never forget....

 

[Jim Watson]

Right. I have seen posts about Grandpa's Gun that cannot be so, the gun had not been made in Grandpa's youth.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

The Singers are really prewar guns; the "educational order" for 500 placed in 1940.
They showed up in procurement records for December 1941 but Clawson says they were likely assembled in November.

Clawson's book is definitely the authoritative Scripture of the wartime 1911 collector!

EDIT: HOLY CRAP, WE NEED ANOTHER PRINT RUN STAT. Getting a copy of the Book is a $1,500 endeavor!

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, but...
Long out of print, the price of the big book has been jacked up to the cost of a pretty good gun.
And there is later information from records and specimens.