Colt 1911A1 help

[Shear_stress]

Stumbled upon an actual Colt 1911A1 at an out of the way gunstore, mostly a special order place really, about an hour ago. I know almost nothing about Colts, but was wondering if anyone could tell me more about it. The gun, serial number 727xxx, was parkerized and marked "1911A1", "U.S. Army" on the frame and some patent information was stamped on the left side of the slide. It came with a set of simple checkered grips. The gun was in nice shape, save for a slightly darkened finish from the muzzle back about three inches (seemingly not long enough for a holster). The Colt was offered at a price comparable to a new Springfiled Mil-Spec.

A couple of questions: from what little I know, the gun looked pretty original. How can you tell? Also, what would be a good price for a 1911A1 in that condition? Thanks!

Edited to add: I checked "www.coolgunsite.com", and, according to them, Colt didn't start parkerizing the 1911A1 until serial number 729993. Should this set off alarm bells? Also, after looking around that website, I spotted other parkerized Colts with a darkened finish around the muzzle. Does anyone know why?

 

[Shear_stress]

Just checked online, and the serial number on the frame places it as 1941 production. Gotta love the internet.

A page on m1911.com also clarified the discoloration at the end of the muzzle. Apparently, this was due to heat treating that end of the slide after the finish was applied.

Here's another thing, that heat treatment process began in 1942. Makes me wonder if this gun was an arsenal rebuild. I may swing by the shop tomorrow and see if the serial number on the slide beneath the firing pin stop at least matches the frame. I should also print out a list of arsenal marks.

Is it still a deal?

 

[Steelharp]

I don't think there will be a serial # under the firing pin stop; at most, I believe there would be an inspector stamp there, if anything at all. It is becoming harder and harder, but not impossible, to find all original, complete guns. Back in the day, they took them apart, threw them in cleaning barrels, and pulled out parts and put 'em back together with whatever came out.

If it's a 1941 frame, and it has all the correct military parts, and it's priced as you say, buy it. You won't lose or make a ton of money on it; but I'll say this... once you've held and fired a genuine mil spec Colt the way they were made back then, everything else is just not going to feel the same. There's just a magic there.

 

[Old Fuff]

Shear_stress (who must be stressed out over all of this).

When Uncle Sam bought pistols from different contractors they assigned each blocks of serial numbers so they wouldn't have more then one gun with a particular number. Most of the time, but not always, this worked.

When you are trying to identify a pistol ignore the slide markings for the time being and check to see if the serial number on the frame falls in a block assigned to the manufacturer you believe made it. In this case #727,xxx was assigned (as expected) to Colt. The serial number block ranged from 721,978 to 756,733 and these guns were made during 1941.

The next thing to do is check the Government Inspector's stamp to see if that inspector worked at the Colt factory during the time period the pistol was supposedly made. This "inspector" was usually a senior Army officer who supervised the inspection process, rather then do it all "hands on." In early 1941 the Government Inspector at Colt's was Col. Robert Sears, USA and his stamp was the letters "R.S." within a box. It should be located on the frame, just under the bottom/rear of the slide stop in front of the left-hand grip. If the pistol was inspected at a different time you will find some other stamp.

It should have a wide-spur hammer and a one-piece/short fingerpiece trigger with a checkered face. The slide stop and magazine release should be checkered also. The grips should be brown plastic.

The slide may or may not have a serial number (or part of one) under the firing pin stop. By 1941 this was mostly past history.

I suspect it was one of the last pistols that Colt blued, and that it was Parkerized during a restoration later. However be aware that when a pistol is this close to the change-over, it is possible that it was finished out of sequence at a date later then it should have been. If you will P.M. me the full serial number I will try to determine when the pistol was shipped, as that may fall within the Parkerized finish range.

Even if this pistol is an arsenal rebuild it should be worth, give or take, at least double what a common mil-spec commercial pistol is selling for today.

I wouldn't walk, I would run back to that dealer...

 

[Shear_stress]

Thanks once again, Fuff. Great information. The gun actually perfectly matched the description you gave. I wish I had the entire serial number--I only memorized the first three numbers. I can get the rest of the serial number tomorrow morning when the shop opens.

I have had checkered experience with Springfields and Kimbers and wouldn't mind a nice, original GI 45. My finances are very limited, so I want to make absolutely sure this gun is worth it. If it is all original, it seems like a screaming deal to me based on the prices I've seen on the internet. If it isn't and is just a nice shooter, I might need leave it for someone else.

One question: if the gun was reparked, would it still show the darkened finish toward the muzzle?

 

[f4t9r]

Buy it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Old Fuff]

"One question: if the gun was reparked, would it still show the darkened finish toward the muzzle?"

It could. The so called "spot hardening" was done at the front part of the slide and around the notch that the slide stop locks into. Because the material is much harder in those areas the Parkerizing may (or may not) be darker. I am also not so sure that the Parkerizing might not be original. They were Parkerizing Springfield 1903 rifles and early M-1's down at Springfield before 1941. Colt themselves clearly ran some guns to test the system before they went into regular production. However the heat treating on the slide would indicate later production of that part. If the gun itself was assembled later it will have different Inspector's marks. It is also possible the original slide was spot hardened at a later date and then Parkerized. During wartime many things are possible...

If this pistol is in the $500.00 to $600.00 range (not to mention less) the parts in it could be sold for more then the purchase price. A good Colt 1941-period slide will bring $100.00 to $150.00 alone. I think it may likely be something a GI brought home from WW-2, Korea, or even Viet-Nam. They are starting to turn up as the Old Vets pass away. Arsenal rebuilds have a collector's value of their own by the way, if they are correctly marked. In any case it is a far better pistol (and more valuable) then any current mil-spec reproduction by anyone - including Colt.

 

[jacobtowne]

According to Clawson, this pistol should have a numbered slide. Beginning with SN 710001 (1937), Colt numbered the slides. This was discontinued in 1943 between SN 1140000 and 1145000.
JT

 

[Old Fuff]

True, but as we got closer to World War Two the practice of numbering slides became somewhat relaxed. Improved interchangeability had made the practice less necessary. While a numbered slide will confirm that the slide's original (look out for fakes) the lack of a number doesn't necessarily mean the slide is a replacement. If you are sure about who made the frame check to see if the slide markings are correct for the period, and the proof "P" marks and others were made with the same stamp.