Colt 38 Super origins.

[sgtstryker]

A buddy told me that Colt came up with the 38 Super in order to sell the 1911 in countries that would not allow their citizens to own military caliber firearms. Is this true ? Sounds interesting, he mentioned Mexico specifically. Thanks..

 

[JTQ]

More likely developed to shoot through car doors during the "gangster" era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Super

 

[Wil Terry]

A buddy told me that Colt came up with the 38 Super in order to sell the 1911 in countries that would not allow their citizens to own military caliber firearms. Is this true ? Sounds interesting, he mentioned Mexico specifically. Thanks..

NOT TRUE. The 38ACP cartridge came out in the late 19TH century for the new COLT autoloading pistols. The SUPER38[the original correct name] was a souped up higher pressure version for use in the 1911A1 pistols. The fact it sold well in Mexico and South America was incidental.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

The history is really quite fascinating but as usual Wil has it right. The Super 38 was a 38 ACP round brought out in 1929 to put more power in the hands of the pistol shooters. The original Colt advertisements were for the target shooter and big-gam hunter who wanted the powerful 38 caliber automatic cartridge. The ads state it is the ideal "one-hand-gun" for big game and it will "stop any animal on the american continent" Original ballistics were a 130 FMJ with 1190 fps.

It was not until 1932 (late in the year) that the ballistics were upped to 1300 FPS with a 130 FMJ.

What is interesting is the the 38/44 Heavy Duty was brought out in April of 1930, and it produced 1115 FPS with a 158 SWC or FMJ depending on what ammo you bought. Sometimes you can find 1150 FPS ammo with a 158 Jacketed LRN.

My personal guess is that the 38/44's were cutting into the market for the Super 38 so they bumped the ballistics of the Super 38 to keep up.

I note that the Super 38's outsold my beloved 38/44's by better than 2 to 1 (pre-WWII).

 

[Keb]

Super 38 was a law enforcement need for more power than 45Acp.

Mexico popularity was because citizens are prohibited from owning military caliburs.

(except today apparently)

 

[brickeyee]

Back when the sheet metal on cars was thicker than aluminum foil.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Mexico popularity was because citizens are prohibited from owning military caliburs.

(except today apparently)

Especially today. Military calibers are still not legally allowed to civilians. Which makes them hot black market items, but still verboten.

David Kopel has a paper on the Mexican gun situation,
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID1589620_code724771.pdf?
David B. Kopel, ''Mexico’s Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives'', April 12, 2010, U Denver Legal Studies Research Paper No. 10-12

Abstract:
This Article presents a full English translation of the Mexican gun control statute, and of past and present versions of the Mexican Constitution’s right to arms guarantee. In addition, the Article provides background information about how Mexico’s gun laws operate in practice, and about the problem of arms smuggling into Mexico.
Keywords: Mexico, gun control
JEL Classifications: K33

 

[Jim K]

The history goes back further, and is also interesting. When John Browning first thought about making an autoloading pistol, he experimented with revolver cartridges, specifically the .32 S&W and the .38 S&W. The black powder loads of those days didn't work well, but the new smokeless powder gave a lot of improvement. The rims interfered with feeding through a magazine, but Browning needed a rim to support the cartridge and as a way to extract an unfired cartridge or a fired case in a recoil operated pistol. (In a blowback, the case blew itself out of the chamber.)

So Browning kept reducing the rim and deepening the extractor groove until he had something that worked, but the cartridges still had to be supported (headspace) on the rim, since Browning couldn't think of any other way.

Meanwhile, across the pond, one Hugo Borchardt made a pistol which supported its cartridges like the Mauser rifle, on a case shoulder. And Mauser soon followed suit, as did Georg Luger. But Luger had his own problem when the German army wanted to increase the bullet diameter. That eliminated the shoulder! So Luger hit on the idea of supporting the case on its mouth. And it worked. Probably sometime around 1904, Browning heard about the Luger idea and the light went on. Browning dropped the idea of cartridges with a little rim and the two cartridges he developed after that were rimless and supported on the case mouth (the .380 ACP and the .45 ACP).

Jim

 

[peacemaker45]

And the next chapter in Jim K's story of the development of the .38 Super:

The original method of head spacing on the tiny little rim always left something to be desired in terms of accuracy. Sometime after WWII, Irv Stone, of Bar-Sto barrel fame, redesigned the chamber to headspace on the casemouth, like other modern cartridges. Since then, this has become the industry standard.

That leaves the vestigial little semi-rim without much of a job. This doesn't matter much in single stack magazines, but when the .38 Super received a new lease on life as a gamesman's round, in IPSC and other action sports, (since it can be loaded hot enough to earn Major power factor scoring, and yet is narrow enough to fit lots of rounds n a magazine of a given size) it started to become an issue in the double column mags they were using. Hence, several modern variants, such as the .38 SuperComp have sprung up, which reduce the even further.

 

[Rock185]

I've enjoyed the historical information on the Super that you guys have posted. While I've shot and reloaded for the Super for many years, and have Douglas Sheldon's book, I wondered about those early published Super ballistics,i.e. 1190 and 1300 fps. I went back and looked at some of the old ads shown in Mr. Sheldon's book, and, sure enough, the earlier ads show the lower velocity and the later ones the higher.. Thanks for clearing this up.

BTW, couple of my 1970s Supers had the barrels that "attempted" to headspace the cartridge on the tiny semi-rim. Absolutely as bad as many others have reported. Non existent accuracy with factory ammo,flattened and pierced primers, etc. Wonder how they ever achieved acceptable accuracy with those 1930s Super Match Colts?

 

[Jim Watson]

The first mention of case mouth headspace control in Super .38 was an article by one of the old line accurizing gunsmiths. Sorry, I forget which.

He wanted to save the labor of converting .38 Super to .38 Special for NRA Centerfire but could not get adequate accuracy with semirim chamber. So he took a look at the .45 and concluded that the case mouth was the place to plunk. There were no aftermarket barrels back then, so he bushed down the Colt barrel and rechambered.
He concluded that it was then as accurate with a .38 Super semiwadcutter as a .38 Special wadcutter gun, more reliable, and less work to bush the chamber than to alter barrel, breechface, and magazine.
The illustration showed the gun with hang tag saying it was for .38 Super, 2.6 gr Bullseye, and 140 gr H&G SWC ONLY, not to be shot with factory Supers.
He conceded that Super brass would cost more but would last a long time with light loads.

If you order a case mouth Super chamber reamer from Clymer it will be labelled ".38 Super Nonte." Maj George C. Nonte described the design in Pistolsmithing, 1974.

 

[brickeyee]

Nonte maybe?

Chambering reamers for .38 Super that use the case mouth (and cut the hod for clearance) are still often refered to as '.38 Super Nonte'.

Mine is down in the basement.

http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=38+super+nonte&ksubmit=y