Colt and Remington cap and ball conversion cylinders from Taylors and company

Status
Not open for further replies.

1KPerDay

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Messages
20,858
Location
Happy Valley, UT
For some reason I think these are extremely cool. Maybe it stems from the Remington in Pale Rider or maybe they’re just cool.

2 or three companies make centerfire conversion cylinders/systems for cap and ball revolvers. Per my understanding, The Howell/R&D style (the kind I have) were originally developed by Kenny Howell https://www.howellarms.com/
for use in Hollywood westerns to more easily allow the use of blanks. Kenny began selling them to the public and the rest is history.

the other major player in this market is Kirst.
https://kirstkonverter.com/

the Kirst design has some advantages over the Howell design in that Kirst uses a separate rear plate that can be temporarily or permanently installed in the frame and has the option of an included loading gate so you can load and unload similarly to dedicated centerfire revolvers. You can also get add-on ejection rod systems for an additional fee. The disadvantage of the Kirst is they are quite pricey, may require some gunsmithing for installation of some models, and only allow 5 shots.

The advantage of the Howell design is they easily drop in to cap and ball pistols (the Remington is easiest since you don’t have to remove the barrel to remove the cylinder as in the Colt open top style), and no permanent modifications have to be made to your cap and ball pistol. You can swap back and forth just by changing the cylinders. Plus the Howell style is roughly half the price of the Kirst at about $240-$270 depending on model and finish.

Due to the significant cost of either system, it may not make sense for some people, as the conversion cylinder is often more than the purchase price of the cap and ball revolvers. I got my Piettas for under $200 each during Cabela’s (now defunct) annual sales, so it was a little painful to pay $240ish for each conversion cylinder. But they are super fun, shoot well, and allow you to shoot your cap and ball revolvers without the need to clean them immediately afterward (unless you shoot blackpowder cartridges, which you can do if you want).

Depending on your jurisdiction you may have to purchase your cap and ball revolver via an FFL and the conversion cylinders may or may not be legal. So check your local laws. In most places you can just order the conversion cylinder from somewhere like Taylor’s and Company or the aforementioned websites and you’re off and running.

One advantage of ordering from Taylor’s and Company if you have a Remington NMA is that they licensed Howell’s original 6-shot cylinder design from him. If you order a NMA conversion cylinder from Howell’s old west conversions it will come with 5 chambers.

Anyhoo these things are a lot of fun so check them out if you like. Here’s a video I did going over the basics and includes some shooting of the Remington NMA and Colt .44 “Navy.”

 
Howell offers 6 shot cyls as well.
(Just so ya know).
Mike
Huh... I thought he couldn't since he licensed his design to Taylor's. He didn't have them on his site for a while. Looks like his 6-shot .45 cylinders have an extra notch for the bolt or something? I wonder if that's why he can still use the design since it's a little different.
https://www.howellarms.com/1858-remington
 
I have a Taylor's .45 Colt conversion cylinder for the Uberti NMA and have fitted Kirst gated cylinders to an Uberti '61 Navy (.38 LC) and 3rd Model Dragoon (.45C). I'm actually hoping the weather will cooperate and I can get the NMA out to the range with its percussion cylinder Friday morning. Not a big deal at this point but there is some slight metal displacement on the bottom of the NMA hammer nose where it strikes the firing pins.

uHvElwXJbe5kIf2KdaDiROhLZpumO8M473qgGPjJh5JWkuN0HAa-Df8YQKnoi9vywIMDiU0M=w950-h534-no?authuser=0.jpg

Dhcwfrxep2C4DTlm6Fk8OMCDN6rpicG2yo-PuA02GmQWRgtlRXjCfZ0E9SgMDwa5mjUU-zw=w1200-h800-no?authuser=0.jpg

haOPJShh46XY2jpoiYuZZ9NGBx-gxOaRQbJGmXY98Lzv-CIHvFhMnPQBL3_b7E7a6xOIMy-=w1000-h388-no?authuser=0.jpg
 
I have a Taylor's .45 Colt conversion cylinder for the Uberti NMA and have fitted Kirst gated cylinders to an Uberti '61 Navy (.38 LC) and 3rd Model Dragoon (.45C). I'm actually hoping the weather will cooperate and I can get the NMA out to the range with its percussion cylinder Friday morning. Not a big deal at this point but there is some slight metal displacement on the bottom of the NMA hammer nose where it strikes the firing pins.

View attachment 1048158

View attachment 1048159

View attachment 1048160
How hard is it to fit the kirst/gated to the dragoon? I have a 3rd model that's crying out for one. Super cool pistols, sir!
 
How hard is it to fit the kirst/gated to the dragoon? I have a 3rd model that's crying out for one. Super cool pistols, sir!

Its not hard at all.
A dremel tool with drum attachment
45 mins of your time
Good learning experience!

After I cut the loading port, I like to use a little cold blue creme on it!
 
The concept of attempting to install a fully loaded conversion cylinder into a waiting frame gives me pause. It looks like the firing pin nubs are somewhat recessed, but drop one on gravel and all bets are off, and guess where it's pointed if it does land on a small rock.
 
The concept of attempting to install a fully loaded conversion cylinder into a waiting frame gives me pause. It looks like the firing pin nubs are somewhat recessed, but drop one on gravel and all bets are off.
I feel similarly, and I'm very careful when handling one. I'm not sure if they would go off. Someone should do a test with primed cases.
 
Huh... I thought he couldn't since he licensed his design to Taylor's. He didn't have them on his site for a while. Looks like his 6-shot .45 cylinders have an extra notch for the bolt or something? I wonder if that's why he can still use the design since it's a little different.
https://www.howellarms.com/1858-remington

Yeah, apparently Taylor's isn't enforcing the patent or has let it expire. Kenny sells the 6 shot Remington cyls. now. Kirst will never sell a 6 shot Remington version (Walt told me) but he has revised the gated version with equal distant chambers.

As far as fitting these cylinders, it's not that hard and they are designed for the user to be able to install (especially the Remington versions). The '60 Army (including the Pietta .44 Navy versions) need the most fitting. They really need a longer cycle to make them work perfectly (this requires stretching the sear). I'm sure sure some folks have their favorite installers . . .

Mike
 
Last edited:
Howdy

I bought my EuroArms Remmie way back around 1975 or so. No idea what it cost back then, but when I decided to buy a R&D cartridge conversion cylinder for it a bunch of years ago the cost of the cylinder was about $180. Not recalling how much I paid for my old Remmie all those years ago, I figured $180 was like buying a new cartridge revolver for that much.

My old Remmie always shot very high. In those days, these revolvers came with very short front sights and always shot high. So before spending the money on a conversion cylinder I had a gunsmith install a taller front sight. This brought the point of impact down where I wanted it, so then I went ahead with the conversion cylinder project.

poLsOQQWj.jpg



At that time, Taylors was selling the R&D (the six shot 45 Colt version) in three different versions, one for an Uberti 1858, one for a Pietta 1858, and I think a third one for the Ruger Old Army, if I recall correctly. Not knowing which model to order for my EuroArms Remmie, I called up Taylors to ask. They suggested I send the gun to them and they would fit a cylinder to it. That is what I did. I shipped the revolver to them, and they fitted a cylinder to it. This consisted of taking one of the Pietta cylinders, which did not yet have the locking slots cut into the cylinder, and cutting them onto my cylinder in the correct spots so the cylinder would time properly. They had/may still have a gunsmith that did this work. He had a fixture he mounted my revolver on, that determined exactly where to cut the locking slots. Then he shaved a few thousandths off the front of the cylinder so it would fit in the cylinder window of my old EuroArms Remmie. Then he sent it out to be reblued.

I hasten to add that all this work was done FOR FREE! All I paid for was shipping my revolver to Taylors, and I paid for the conversion cylinder. Taylors then shipped my revolver back to me on their dime, with my original C&P cylinder mounted in the frame and the cartridge conversion cylinder in a separate box in the same package. All completely legal, as they were shipping a non-firearm to me with some extra parts in the package.

Did I mention they did all that gunsmithing FOR FREE? Part of the beauty of this arrangement is because they did not alter my C&B revolver at all, I can pop the C&B cylinder back in at any time and shoot it as a C&B revolver.

pmjkHCsvj.jpg




A year or so later I came across a used Stainless Uberti 1858 that came with a conversion cylinder for a very good price, so I grabbed it. Yeah the revolver is stainless and the conversion cylinder is blued. Who cares?

pmGRzVuNj.jpg




The reason I went with the R&D six shot cylinder is because no alteration needed to be done to the revolver itself. Any time I want to shoot C&B I just pop the original cylinder back in and I am all set




The other nice thing about the 1858 is, it is so easy to pop the cylinder out for reloading. Just like Clint, all you do is set the hammer to half cock, lower the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward, pop out the cylinder, reload, then pop the cylinder back into the frame and raise up the loading lever.

pmFcPt9jp.png




Unlike a Colt, pulling the barrel off is not necessary. Not even possible.

po4xsZUAj.jpg



Even though these cylinders are proofed for mild Smokeless loads, I only shoot cartridges loaded with Black Powder in mine. Because of the grip shape of the 1858, full house Black Powder 45 Colt loads are a bit uncomfortable to fire in this model, so I usually shoot them with 45 Schofields loaded with a 200 grain bullet.



That is one of my 45 Schofield rounds on the far right in this photo, loaded with the J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet, designed by me and another cowboy named Peterson.

plxbRfYxj.jpg
 
Last edited:
The story is Ken Howell designed this cylinder for six shots by canting the chambers out ever so slightly at the rear, so six rims could be seated without overlapping. The angle is so slight, less than 2 degrees, that it does not affect accuracy at all. Howell patented his design and he was the sole supplier for Taylors.

Later, for some reason, Howell sold the rights to his patent to Taylors. Taylors hired another company to make the cylinders with the angled chambers, so that when Howell started his own company to make cartridge conversion cylinders, he could not make a six shot 45 Colt cylinder for the 1858 Remington because he had sold his patent to Taylors.

More recently I see Howell is offering a six shot conversion cylinder for the 1858 with angled chambers. I believe he is able to do this because his original patent has expired.

Regarding the 'viewing ports' on the side of the cylinder, they are actually there because with the counterbores opened up enough for the larger rims of the 45 Schofield cartridge, the steel would be paper thin in that area, so it was easier to cut right through and leave 'viewing ports'.

pnfrtVp2j.jpg




Regarding the slots cut into the sides of the cylinder for lowering the hammer between chambers, a nice thought, but it has never worked for me. The nose of the hammer on my old EuroArms Remmie is too fat and does not fit into the slots.

pngFkofHj.jpg
 
How hard is it to fit the kirst/gated to the dragoon? I have a 3rd model that's crying out for one. Super cool pistols, sir!

Thank you 1K. After taping off everything to guard against tool slippage I used a dremel and the drum sander attachments, maintaining a visual reference point for material removal and periodically checking with a cartridge case in the cylinder until it would satisfactorily clear the channel. I wore out a few drums in the process (it takes a while), working to a fine grit for the end, hand sanded with 400 wet/dry on a stick, then cold blued.

The '61 Navy was a number of years prior to that, but same process.
 
Please bear in mind that once you have installed a gated Kirst Konverter, your black powder replica has ceased to exist according to BATF. You now own a centerfire revolver and it's subject to all the laws of your residing state and federal BATF regs, including ownership, transport and sales thereof. Not so with the Howell or Taylor's, where a 5 second cylinder swap returns it to it's original state. Once you cut the loading port in the recoil shield, you have altered the firearm from it's original state permanently.
As far as the firing pins torching off a loaded cylinder if dropped, I see that as a very unlikely scenario. They are recessed and it would take a freak accident to actually strike one of the firing pins. Not to mention the fact that with the lead being forward, dropping one would most likely cause the cylinder to do a faceplant rather than land on it's keister. Just sayin'.
 
Thank you 1K. After taping off everything to guard against tool slippage I used a dremel and the drum sander attachments, maintaining a visual reference point for material removal and periodically checking with a cartridge case in the cylinder until it would satisfactorily clear the channel. I wore out a few drums in the process (it takes a while), working to a fine grit for the end, hand sanded with 400 wet/dry on a stick, then cold blued.

The '61 Navy was a number of years prior to that, but same process.
So the timing and everything else was fine? You didn’t have to do any fitting of the rear plate or anything? Just had to make a clearance for the cartridge in the recoil shield?
 
Well, first off when I'm putting the loaded cylinder in the gun, the gun is pointed muzzle down at the ground. I fail to see how a cylinder would hit firing pins first. Betcha a nickel if that a cylinder slipped out of my hand it would have the same chance as a loaded gun slipping out of my hand going off. Also betcha a nickel that if you and I sat down you could think up 10 different ways for a cap and ball revolver to accidental go off quicker than me.o_O
 
I bought my EuroArms Remmie way back around 1975 or so..........At that time, Taylors was selling the R&D (the six shot 45 Colt version) in three different versions, one for an Uberti 1858, one for a Pietta 1858, and I think a third one for the Ruger Old Army, if I recall correctly. Not knowing which model to order for my EuroArms Remmie, I called up Taylors to ask. They suggested I send the gun to them and they would fit a cylinder to it. That is what I did. I shipped the revolver to them, and they fitted a cylinder to it. This consisted of taking one of the Pietta cylinders, which did not yet have the locking slots cut into the cylinder, and cutting them onto my cylinder in the correct spots so the cylinder would time properly.
I have a mid-1980's vintage Euroarms (Armi San Paolo) Remmie. The Howell 5-shot conversion cylinder made for an Uberti fits it perfectly. I suppose the dimensions of the Euroarms changed over the years.

The choice, when I bought the cylinder, was between the Howell 5-shot and the R&D (invented by Howell) 6-shot. I figured the canted chambers of the 6-shot resulted in very thin chamber walls. Also, the 6-shot would have to be carried with one chamber empty, for safety. That would effectively make it a 5-shot. The Howell 5-shot had intermediate locking notches (which the 6-shot didn't have), so it could be carried with all chambers loaded.

Here's a picture of the Euroarms (top) and the Uberti (bottom), both with their 5-shot conversion cylinders. (The Uberti is noticeably beefier, especially around the top strap.)

IMG_0196a.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top