Combat 1911s?

[jaysouth]

Someone with better military firearms credentials than mine, recently posited that NO 1911s were brought back from The Pacific or Europe during WWII, as well as any other small arms. The only 1911s that could have seen combat, and brought back, were guns stolen by GIs and brought back or pistols purchased by officers.

The first time that small arms and other equipment followed their troops home was Desert Storm and subsequent action in the sandbox.

It runs contrary to what gunshow fidgets and gunshop commandos will tell you, but it makes sense to me. It took three ships to deliver a division with all it's equipment, but only one to bring the personnel back.

Any insight on this?

 

[jeepnik]

In 1970, a POS M16 failed. The firearm that didn't was a Remington Rand 1911A1. From it's look it was an arsenal rebuild which pretty much meant it was brought back from either the ETO or the PTO.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

It's highly improbable that *none* came back. It is true that anywhere the U.S. military ever had a presence at any time, we leave a lot of stuff there.

The first and simplest reason that some 1911 pistols must have come back is that by September of 1945, every single 1911 and 1911A1 the United States ever purchased, had been delivered. If we didn't bring any back, we wouldn't have had any to issue for the next 40+ years.

The second reason is that the TO&E specifies that certain people MUST carry handguns. If their hogleg isn't where it's supposed to be, they are financially responsible to replace it, and that was a LOT of pay back then.

 

[Akai]

I've heard from servicemen that pickups off of battle field (pistols bayonets rifles) were sometimes mailed back!
Saw a Japanese rifle with or in original packaging (looked like old brown wrapping paper) for sale on Gun Broker a few years back sent via mail with stamps and address.

 

[dfariswheel]

The old DCM and the current CMP are selling WWII M1 Rifles made during WWII.
If you have an M1 made prior to 1944 it's extremely likely it went over seas.

Yes, many M1's were kept in the US for various reasons like recruit training, but in the dark days between 1941 and late 1944 there weren't enough M1 rifles to fill combat needs so in those early days most M1's went with the troops.

If you watch some of the old WWII video you'll notice that a surprising number of 1903 and even 1917 rifles are in the hands of support personnel and even combat troops.
Largely unknown is that some front line combat troops NEVER got the M1 rifle and had to use mostly the 1903-A3 rifles.

The US brought huge number of all combat arms back to the USA, including the M1 Rifle, M1 Carbine, and .45 auto.
Companies like the FN factory rebuilt large numbers of US weapons prior to shipping them home.

The US did leave a fair amount of arms in Europe for use by friendly countries, but this was much less so in the Pacific where there just weren't all that many countries we were interested in arming after the war.
The US military didn't just abandon many service arms anywhere.
Most came home.

 

[Sunray]

Far less expensive to store stuff in place than it is to transport. Very likely that the numbers that were sent to war were close to or fewer than the numbers that were in storage Stateside.
"...extremely likely it went over seas..." Possible but not to U.S. troopies. According to Richard Winters' book his paras were issued new rifles just prior to being sent to England in 1943. The old rifles would have been re-issued to units in training.
"...three ships to deliver a division..." Suspect it's more than 3. Roughly 10-20,000 all ranks in a PBI Div. Plus a whole bunch of vehicles. Swiped this from militaryhistoryonline.
"In mid 1944 (TO&E 7, dated 15 July 1943) the infantry division had 18 M3 105mm infantry howitzers, 36 M2 105mm howitzers, 12 M1 155mm howitzers, 5 halftracks, 13 M8 armored cars, 1,371 motor vehicles, and 10 light observation aircraft. Total personnel strength was 14,253."

 

[JTQ]

I suspect a lot of those arms that went overseas ended up in storage in places we stayed with troops, like Japan, the Philippines, Guam, England, Germany, etc. They may have trickled back to the states over the years, or been sold to various countries over the years. However, I suspect most of those small arms eventually made it back to the storage facilities in the States, since most of them got reused for Korea, and then again in Vietnam.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I used to own a 1943 RR that I got off a old WWII bomber pilot He brought it home . I have a 1941 Colt USGI was made in Dec 1941 . I have a M-1 carbine paper work I found said was part of shipment to Marines in Pacific 1943 . I guess a lot made it back over the years

 

[Walt Sherrill]

A lot of OFFICERS could buy their handguns when they left service. Many did. (As a general rule, your friend may be right about 1911s -- except those bought by officers -- but not about the other weapons.)

A LOT of weapons used during WWII remained in service for the next two wars. Some were later turned over for sale through the Civilian Marksmanship Program; still others, previously sold or given to WWII Allies have been returned and distributed through the CMP program.

A LOT of 1911s may soon be available, as well. http://www.guns.com/2015/05/08/house-advances-amendment-to-sell-milsurp-1911s-through-cmp/

An excerpt from that linked article:

The lawmaker disclosed that the military currently spends about $2 per year to store 100,000 Model 1911s that are surplus to the Army’s needs. While 8,300 have been sold or disposed of in recent years – largely through the controversial Department of Defense’s 1033 Program, which offers eligible law enforcement agencies up to one pistol per full-time officer – the guns still on hand have in many cases been stored since the 1980s when they were withdrawn from service in favor of the then-new Beretta 92F (M9).

The amendment would authorize the CMP, currently just limited to selling .30-caliber and .22-caliber rifles, to receive and sell any surplus military firearm. It would not cover any surplus 1911s held by other branches such as the Navy and Air Force, or those that may linger in federal law enforcement service. The Army guns are stored at the Anniston Army Depot, in a district which Roger’s represents and is coincidentally co-located to the CMP’s regional warehouse and store, which would minimize the logistics of a transfer.​

I don't know where THIS stands, as this link is several months old...

 

[CoalTrain49]

I have one. Serial number indicates it was made late in 1943. As all M1 carbines made in 43 and 44 were sent to military units in combat there is a 99.9% chance it was used in Europe or the Pacific. If none were brought back how did it get in my safe? I'm not old enough to have been there and bring it back.

Many 1911's, carbines and Garands stayed in service for many years after WW2. Every now and then they show up when foreign countries surplus them. Some were used in WW2, rearsenaled and loaned to other countries. Many of them went to Korea.

 

[USAF_Vet]

A few years ago, I foolishly passed on a $650 Remington Rand 1911 with a 1918 date of manufacture. This gun could have very well seen combat in two wars, and still made it back to wind up in a gun case in New Jersey. Had I not been out of work at the time, I'd have purchased that gun and had it shipped to and transferred through an FFL in Michigan.

 

[PabloJ]

A few years ago, I foolishly passed on a $650 Remington Rand 1911 with a 1918 date of manufacture. This gun could have very well seen combat in two wars, and still made it back to wind up in a gun case in New Jersey. Had I not been out of work at the time, I'd have purchased that gun and had it shipped to and transferred through an FFL in Michigan.

You should have bought that depending on what factory it was made in they can cost $1200 for one in good shape to tens of thousands of dollars. Naturally those made at factories that never made guns before the war cost much more.
Did you buy one of them Russian capture P-38? You know one could have been used at the Battle of Stalingrad.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I've heard from servicemen that pickups off of battle field (pistols bayonets rifles) were sometimes mailed back!
Saw a Japanese rifle with or in original packaging (looked like old brown wrapping paper) for sale on Gun Broker a few years back sent via mail with stamps and address.

This is true. If it wasn't US property (issued weapons) most weapons could be shipped back as personal property if the command approved it. A letter was signed by the commanding officer and the returning service man kept it as proof it was legit. I have one of those letters that describes a pistol that my dad picked up in France. I also have the pistol.

A common belief is that US property was brought back by service men. I suspect that a few did either because the person had permission or they somehow managed to smuggle it in, but mostly the military made sure it didn't happen. The weapons were rearsenaled and used after WW2. Some were given to foreign countries as they were rebuilt. A lot of US rifles were left in Germany and Korea. There is 700,000 M1 carbines in Korea right now that they would like to surplus to the US but an executive order prevents them from coming here.

 

[Ron James]

Record keeping in actual combat conditions is a little hit and miss. Too many big items to really look as the small *****. Yes, we have no bananas, Very few US firearms were officially brought back from Viet Nam, However quite a few " lost in combat " firearms ( all small enough to fit into the bottom of a duffel bag. Just to give you an ideal of what I mean, a HU-1D crashes, everything is recovered or was I't ? A .45 ACP was picked up off the ground and thrown into a tool bag, later when the ' picker upper ' remembered, he tried to turn it into the arms room , only to be told the gun no longer existed, it was lost in combat and no way in hell was the was the armorer going to redo the paper work. I kept that .45 for over a year, gave it to another Sgt. who took it home. .At that time there were no metal detectors, and NCO's bags were not searched upon departure from the OA, and no way was a very overworked custom inspector was going to empty the duffel bags of a 747 load of returning GI's. Yes there was something in the bottom of my duffel bag. Another true story, one man mailed home a M1A1 Grease gun, on the customs tag he wrote out , " Mechanics Grease gun ". Yes, it went through the US Mail and arrived safe and sound at his hope. A little aside, he told me later his mother almost had a heart attack when she opened the package. Hey , he was a draftee who didn't really care a rats patonie about legality's. So, no, I don't think very many, if any .45's were legally brought back from Nam, but a whole bunch found their way back by other means to the US. By the way, any modern weapons broungt back from the sand box was a court martial, different times .

 

[USAF_Vet]

You should have bought that depending on what factory it was made in they can cost $1200 for one in good shape to tens of thousands of dollars. Naturally those made at factories that never made guns before the war cost much more.
Did you buy one of them Russian capture P-38? You know one could have been used at the Battle of Stalingrad.

Derp moment. It was a Remington UMC, not Rand. Still a 1918 WWI 1911, though.