Combat Carbine: 357, 44, 5.56, 7.62x39?

[Brian Williams]

I really like my Marlin 1894/S&W mod 13 combo. 10 shots of 357 with 6 more in the revo. This combo is lightweight and easy to play with. I have a Marble's tang sight on the rifle and it is very quick and handy. 2 boxes of ammo, a couple of speed loaders and a wallet pack of 18 fit nicely in my range/car bag.

 

[telewinz]

dud....

Why isn't the .30 CARBINE on the list? It was good enough for our military and energy figures are as good or close to some of the other calibers. Give me a 30 round clip and I'll go at it!

 

[Warner]

I like this thread and have been following it, but it seems like many are transposing the ideas of "combat" with that of basic self-defense.

I offer the mention of .22lr's and lever-action rifles as evidence.

I believe that whatever one's idea or definition of combat is, shouldn't it be at least a notch or two above self-defense?

IMO, A lot of beginner-type folks frequent these forums to advance an education on these many topics. I wouldn't want even one member befuddled (or worse) during any potentially bad scenario in the future through such misunderstandings.

I hope I'm not alone.

 

[Art Eatman]

You're right, Warner, but there are, IMO, three levels working here: "Real" combat, a la formal military; urban SHTF combat, and then some elevated level of self defense beyond the usual scenario but less than the LA riots.

I guess everybody needs to first work out their own probable scenario and then choose for probable utility.

For me, "combat" means a normal, formal military situation. Depending on my unit, then, I'd go with some presently-issued weapon. The issues of support and resupply come into play...

Art

 

[MolonLabe416]

.30 Carbine too weak?

With JSP or JHP ammo, you essentially have a combat proven .357 self loading carbine - you included .357 in the poll.

Jim Cirrillo used one loaded thus with great effect while on the NYC Stakeout Squad.

At urban self-defense distances the 30 carbine with JSP or JHP ammo will do, if you will do.

 

[Glamdring]

What do I mean by combat here? Something more than basic self defense. But not small unit military combat. For small unit military combat I know I want a 7.62 nato self loader (M1a Scout, FN, or HK).

IMVHO handguns and shotguns will suffice for any real self defense. But their are occasions were one might need a bit more. Things like LA riots, or the many types of events that LE get to contain.

As to the 30 carbine others are welcome to use it if they want to, but for me it is to weak. Just like a 9mm or 45acp SMG would be (they are just heavy pistols to me).

Honestly I think the 357 and 5.56 are weak for carbines but they have some advantages to balance out their low power (the 357 can use same ammo as my CCW, the 223 can provide various types of terminal ballistics depending on bullet structure everything from 40 JHP to 55 grain Trophy bonded or 60 grain Nosler Partition).

 

[Revolver]

I think that because of the availiabilty of ammo and spare parts that either 5.56 or 7.62 would be good chioces for carbine calibers

 

[Newton]

For self defence I like the .30 Carbine.

Light, handy, accurate and deadly to one hundred yards, near zero recoil, no flash to speak of, and minimal muzzle blast for use in a home defence type situation (seems quieter than a 9mm when I shoot mine).

With a GI issue 15 round magazine stoked with the planned Corbon hollow points, I find it hard to imagine a situation that it would not be able to handle.

SKS/AK47 and AR15 just seem like too much gun, if I was a soldier however I would be praying for a SiG 551.

 

[Sir Galahad]

.30 carbine is expensive to practice with. Cor-Bon ammo would be nice and even more expensive. The selection of ammo for .30 carb is not real wide in most places. Thing is, you will find bulk ammo in .223 or 7.62x39 in any gun shop in any town over 50,000 poplation with few exceptions. You will find cheap-enough .30-30 ammo in just about every small town. You will find .44 mag and .357 in most places. But many places won't even carry .30 carb because they don't sell enough of it to make it worthwhile. If you can stock enough of it, that's all that's important. But it is still an expensive round to practice with no benefit over .223 which offers a wider variety of ammo selection and is a lot cheaper to practice with. The advanatge of the .30 carbine is the light M1 carbine it's chambered in. But I'd rather tote the extra pounds of an AK myself. Mags are cheap and last forever, ammo is cheap and now comes in hermetically sealed "spam" cans for long-term storage, and the caliber is found prolifically.

 

[Warner]

I would add to what Sir Galahad said the fact that the .30 carbine has always had a huge swirl of controversy around it and it's effectiveness. I also don't believe that any "magic" new loads like Corbons will assist it much against anything but an un-protected target.

Need to imagine situations it won't handle? Try light barriers, vegetation, and even heavy clothing and gear. Those and other things out there in the real world should all work to worsen its marginal reputation even further IMO, if anyone really plans to rely on this one.

While I am NO supporter for the 5.56, I’d feel MUCH safer with that round over the .30 carbine in any conceivable situation.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Depends on exactly what you want me to do with it, but for most fighting uses I'd lean towards .223 Rem, preferably with a heavier bullet. Although, the idea of a semi-auto .44mag carbine is interesting (Thumper!!)

Keep in mind, though, that most any caliber will do if you will do.

- Chris

 

[Sir Galahad]

If Ruger had a gram of cojones, they'd make a 10 round mag for their .44 Magnum Deerfield carbine.

 

[BluesBear]

Amen to the 10 round Deerfield magazine!

But we all know that Ruger will never do it. Remember when they introduced the Mini-14? They didn't make 20 or 30 round mags for anyone but police departments and military purchasers for many years. Rugr even made the 77-22 mags different from the 10-22 so you can't use the 25 round banana clips in them.

 

[sturmruger]

.44 Mag

I used to have a Marlin lever action in .44 Mag. I wish that I had never sold that gun!!! I do have a Mini 14 as well. Very good gun.

 

[jercamp45]

My vote is for the AK....Millions served!!

Reliability first. Combat accuracy. .30 caliber bullet. Soft points, please! Low recoil. Cheap ammo. Cheap mags. Dirt simple to take care of.
Ghost ring? Krebs Custom Guns...www.krebscustom.com gave me a quote of 65 bucks to install a galil style peep rear on the dust cover of my saiga...but before I could send it in, I moved to Vegas and left my sweet Kalishkinov in a cousin's gunsafe for safe keeping! Maybe later! Kreb's also makes longer stocks and an 'enhanced' safety for easier manipulation by shooting hand!
Amen to the 10 round mags for the Ruger .44!! I had one of the original tube fed carbines as a teenager in Alaska(it worked well at a measured 45 below zero!!) and even wrote Ruger suggesting a detachable box fed mag with higher capacity in 1976 or 77. The sent me a 'we're not even thinking about it' letter and a Ruger Patch!
Was pondering a MechTech Carbine Conversion to turn One of my Officer's models into a handy Patrol Carbine! What? No folding stock???
The .460 Roland version of the Mechtech CCU on one frame and a Conversion kit for a Government model (www.clarkcustomguns.com)with several Wilson 10 rounders would be a most interesting power combo!!
I carried an M16A1 way back when as an Assaultman in the Gyrenes....was never too fond of the 'black rifle'(ok, the round is still supersonic at 500 meters and WILL hit a man sized target in the chest, no prob! With Soft points, it will probably be acceptable. Can I have an M203 40m/m grenade launcher too? Pretty please!)
That said, I prefer simple, rugged and larger bullets!
Semper Fi
Jercamp45

 

[CZ52GUY]

7.62x39 AK

Cheap ammo', reliable, easy to maintain and operate, reasonably light...not terribly long, and 50+ years of proven performance operating in conditions where flush toilets are uncommon...

CZ52'

 

[Sir Galahad]

My tag line at AK47.net-----


Kalashnikov: Millions and millions of satisfied customers since 1949.

 

[Newton]

You can wear as many clothes as you like, and then I'll shoot you with my .30 Carbine and we'll see if the bullet reaches you

The myth of the .30 Carbine's alleged lack of penetration has endured since Korea, mostly because soldiers saw heavily clothed Chicoms who were shot with it but didn't fall over, they still had a hole in them though, sometimes 2. To suggest that a 110 grain 30 caliber FMJ doing almost 2000fps is unable to penetrate heavy clothing would mean that a .357 Magnum FMJ at 1400fps would bounce off a leather jacket.

I'll stick with Jim Cirillo on this one, but at ten bucks for 50 I'll admit it isn't cheap to feed compared to .223 and 7.62x39.

Newton

 

[444]

Like everyone else, I am not sure of the definition of "combat" but as a civilian I guess it would mean combat with someone breaking into my home, looters during a major disaster or something like that. No matter what kind of combat we are talking about, I would take the AR15 for it's versitility. Semi-Auto, large magazine capacity, easy to reload the weapon (no magazine tube or stripper clips), superior accuracy. My main "go to" AR is a flat top and is also equipped with a KAC RAS II rail system. So, I can use iron sights, Aimpoint, scope, or night vision (no I don't own night vision gear but I have borrowed one and used it on my AR). With the Aimpoint I can use head mounted night vision, weapon mounted night vision, or a dedicated night vision scope. On the RASII I can use my Surefire 910 series weaponslight, and can also remove it in seconds if I don't need a light.

Caliber: I would probably use 5.56, but I do have an upper in .458 SOCOM that would also do the trick (and a bunch of 300 grain JHPs at about 1900 fps). In 5.56 the bullet doesn't have to tumble to be effective. I am a civilian so I can use whatever bullet I want. I currently have GI Ball ammo, Remington JSP, and Hornady V-Max. Only the GI Ball has to tumble. The V-Max is too explosive for anti-personel use. And out of all the calibers you name, the 5.56 is by far the safest round for firing in a building with the least chance of overpenetration. Yet, it will defeat most ballistic armor. The cartridge is plenty accurate, and plenty effective for any reasonable shot that can be made without a benchrest and a known distance range.

It is light and a battle proven weapon having served in combat longer than any other US military rifle. It has served all over the world in all climates and under all conditions.

 

[BluesBear]

???

¿?¿?¿? Tumble ¿?¿?¿?

 

[Kurt]

The 7.62X39 would be my choice at carbine distances. A quick look around suggests that this is a great time to outfit with this caliber, as solid guns and magazines are everywhere, and ammo is cheap.

For me, there's way too much controversy over the .223/5.56 to bet anything important upon. There's too many negatives with AR15, and its mags, and too great a leap of faith to find those aforementioned solid points in all of it.

If it's OK with everyone (and for personal health reasons), I won't even get into rifles that shoot pistol rounds.

 

[igor]

7,62x39 is good enough for our military...