concealed carry gun grab defense

[checkmyswag]

I finally figured out a very comfortable and concealable gun/holster/clothing combination.

It's very well concealed. But I am concerned about the possibility of a gun grab from behind. I'm carrying in the 4 o'clock position.

I try to maintain good situational awareness and keep my head on a swivel.

Aside from that...how do you prevent/defend against a gun grab from behind.

I think the angle would be hard to pull. I can lock my elbow down over the gun. If they hold on, should be able to work a trip or hip toss.

This concern almost has me interested in going back to cross draw.

 

[Renegade Ziggy]

A few questions, why are you concerned if your firearm is very well concealed? Is it noticable while kneeling or bending over?

I think the angle would be hard to pull. I can lock my elbow down over the gun. If they hold on, should be able to work a trip or hip toss.

Are you trained in hand to hand combat? The 4 o'clock position is very hard to defend and unless properly trained your not getting very far. Hip toss or not, they still have a hand on your firearm.

If your that concerned over someone attempting to grab your firearm you may need to consider carrying it in a different position.

IMO the 4 o'clock isn't very praticle, that's just me. But if your still wondering check this out. http://www.tacticalresponse.com/d/node/227

 

[VAPOPO]

I carry from 3-3:15 seems like a good compromise. If you are worried about a grab there are level 2 or 3 holsters that could be concealable the Serpa comes to mind. Take a defensive tactics class and keep your situational awareness set on high.

 

[checkmyswag]

I have some hand to hand/grappling training but I'm no expert.

I'd prefer the 3 position as well but 4 is much more comfortable

Will check out the retention IWB holsters.

 

[Sam1911]

The greatest defense against a grab is a well-concealed gun. The odds that you'll ever be both a) momentarily exposed, and b) standing right in front of a violent criminal interested, capable, and willing in that moment to steal your gun and/or take violent action righ then seem pretty galactically small.

A tight-riding IWB carried inside a snug belt really isn't that easy to snatch from anyway, compared to an open-carried gun in an OWB holster without retention devices.

Seems like a worry about a pretty remote concern. My opinion is that open carry should have some form of retention, but that concealed carry largely negates the need. "Retention by stealth."

Besides...who at this point DOESN'T know how to release a gun from even a level-3 retention holster?

 

[bikerdoc]

Awareness rules the day, failing that look into some gun retention knife techniques if you really feel the need.

 

[checkmyswag]

I don't want to chase this concern too far.

I keep aware of my surroundings, my concealment setup is very good and upon further consideration I agree the perfect storm is pretty unlikely in this instance.

 

[conw]

I see it as two different problems.

Problem 1 is if you have an exposed gun and lack of awareness, and someone decides to steal your gun by grabbing it (we'll assume for the sake of discussion no steel pipe is involved), e.g. sneaking up behind you. Mostly an awareness and concealment issue.

Problem 2 comes up a lot in training the 0-5 foot range, and I believe it needs to be dealt with in training regardless of what perceived odds are of it happening. That is the problem of being in a tangled up situation, and someone feeling a weapon on your belt and attempting to free you of it. The 4 o clock positioning is less of an issue here if you can keep your hips oriented to the aggressor.

You said you have some grappling background. What I'm discussing is basically overhooking the arm of the aggressor and pinning your elbow to your belt by crunching down your abs. From there you actually have the upper hand, pun intended, and can let your grappling background take over (and/or hooks to the chin and temple, and/or access a knife, and/or hip toss).

Southnarc teaches this. It is called "the Cradle." It really needs to be rehearsed in training. Credit goes to Paul Sharp for the move.

 

[Owen Sparks]

This is where a locked and cocked 1911 can save your life. Unless someone is familiar with the design they will not be able to figure out where the safety is and fight at the same time. While they focus on trying to make it work you focus on knocking them out.
I have handed my Kimber to several Glock shooters to try only to have to show them how to take the safety off. Some were even cops.

 

[Rexster]

The problem I see with 0400 carry is that if I place my hand on the weapon, I am placing my arm most of the way into a convenient position for an opponent to take that arm out of action by simply levering upward on my hand or forearm. Draw speed is also affected by the distance I must reach get to the weapon. My partially-messed-up right rotator cuff enters into the equation, too. Then, there is the back pain, and the weapon jabbing me in the ribs. Of course, we are all built differently, so these last two factors will vary among individuals.

An 0100-0200 position (appendix) is most defensible, and very accessible, but I generally use 0300 for my primary weapon, for a long list of reasons, starting with consistency with my police duty rig. I will use 1030-0230 for secondary weapons and other tools. (1030 was not a typo.) Admittedly, 0300 is not necessarily the most concealment-oriented position for all of us

 

[Averageman]

Three O'Clock.
Throw a left jab and drop your right, falls right to your gun at 3.
Dont throw a jab, put your hand out to block, drop your right hand; falls right to your 3.
Throw your left arm up to block a knife slash, right falls to your three.
Learn to rock left and put your weight in to it in a grapple, right hand drops to your three.
Three O'clock Glock.

 

[FMF Doc]

There is going to be a trade off in anything. A level III retention holster carried OWB at the 3:00 is going to stop all but the best gun grabs. This is also probably the fastest draw option availiable. The down side is that it is about the worst way to conceal any pistol. On the other end of the spectrum is something between 4:30 and SOB carry, which can be used to effectively conceal anything south of a bazooka. The trade off is that sitting is down-right painful, the draw is slower than anything besides ankle, and if someone comes up behind you knowing that you have a gun there, you are pretty much defenseless. So the goal is to pick what works best for what you are doing. For me, it varries. In the car for long trips I prefer shoulder or cross draw strictly due to comfort. If I am outside doing yard work, or the like, I use the SOB carry, because I want the gun hidden, out of my work area, there is little sitting going on, and it is very unlikely that anyone is getting within 30ft of me without my knowledge. Now, if I am heading out in town to run errands, I go with the 3:30 IWB with generous cant. It keeps it concealed, but accessible, and close enough to control should someone get too close. I have several other options ranging from ankle to tactical drop-leg and even apendix, though I don't care much for that one. The secret is to have options, practice them, and use the one that fits the situation.

 

[checkmyswag]

Is that the move? Carry multiple ways?

I'm big on doing things the same way every time.

Agree that for every option there are trade offs.

My instinct and training is to lock my arm (elbow area) on the gun. I like the thought of just grabbing it with my hand too and using just my free hand to respond to the threat.

 

[FMF Doc]

No one gun fits every every purpose, no one holste fits every gun, and no one carry method fits every scenario. "The right tool for the right job" should include more than just your gun. It should include, holster, belt, clothing and how it all comes together. I am not a quick draw expert. I like to be able to access my weapon as fast as possible, but that is the trade off I usually make for comfort and concealment. If it takes me a an extra half-second to second to draw, and that makes the difference in life or death, I probably wasn't walking away anyways. With a little practice, you can become confident and capable in any and many different carry methods.

 

[david58]

The greatest defense against a grab is a well-concealed gun. The odds that you'll ever be both a) momentarily exposed, and b) standing right in front of a violent criminal interested, capable, and willing in that moment to steal your gun and/or take violent action righ then seem pretty galactically small.

A tight-riding IWB carried inside a snug belt really isn't that easy to snatch from anyway, compared to an open-carried gun in an OWB holster without retention devices.

Seems like a worry about a pretty remote concern. My opinion is that open carry should have some form of retention, but that concealed carry largely negates the need. "Retention by stealth."

Besides...who at this point DOESN'T know how to release a gun from even a level-3 retention holster?

I am wholeheartedly in support of concealment and vigilance as the primary defense. Mongo has fewer scruples than you, and may well have practiced disarming folks while in the pen. Even if not a veteran of the pen, the element of surprise may negate most of the training you have had - your split-second delay in reaction may be all it takes for you to be sans pistole.

I also have personal experience in just how a middle-aged (50 at the time) guy who flies a desk for work can get whipped real quick. And I learned this in CLASS. Total tear of the rotator cuff and a tear of the labrum. My take-away was to conceal conceal conceal and be aware aware aware. I realize that I ain't giving no ass-whippin', and am too old to take one.

 

[Losov]

If it's truly concealed, what's the problem? If, however, you believe someone has been watching you, knows where your weapon is and has formulated a plan to get it - well, then it doesn't matter where you carry it. He's going to get it.

 

[poolingmyignorance]

I disagree. Might be your semantics. Simply put there is no defense for an ambush or sneak attack other than to avoid it.
If you believe you have been targeted, it's time to let the person you suspect know your aware of them. I'm not saying draw your gun, but make eye contact, and look confrontational. Sometimes I just look a person making me uncomfrotable in the eye and say "Hey what are you doing?" Thats typically enough to dissuade somebody who's looking for an unsuspecting victim to go choose elsewhere. If not well at least now you know your in a fight. You might sound crazy or crazy but if they atempt to close the distance at this point before they even get within striking distance say "back up".
When it comes to techincal self defense a few paragraphs won't help you so I won't try to explain anything like that. If you've been trained in grappling specificly jiujitsu or brazilian jiu jitsu, and you carry 3'0clock or 4'0 clock and they atempt to grab at it from the front, they are offering their arm for a standing kimura',or even pull them to guard if you need the leverage. They'll be so fixated on your weapon theyll think theyre still wining up till their shoulder pops. Thats what we taught in the occasional officers that came to train with us. Now again, don't go youtube "kimura" and decide to try this out without a qualified instructor to show your the finer points.
If your currently training it's a good subject to ask about. As far as somebody grabbing it from behind, there are several options similar to the disarms taught for dealing with an assailant who already has their own weapon, just slight but significant variations . A lot of schools now just focus on MMA and tournaments, I suggest you ask around for a Caique, Gracie, or Relson direct linage school to get this info.

 

[Losov]

Exactly. There is no defense for a surprise attack, so it makes little difference where on your body you carry. Keep it concealed, make sure it's concealed (no peeks, no oops, no intentional "accidental" flashing). People will not try to take a weapon they don't know you have.

 

[Creature]

It is why I prefer appendix carry.

 

[Losov]

How does that make a difference?

 

[Creature]

for starters:

1. Better concealment
2. Easier to draw from a seated position
3. Prevents printing when bending or reaching
4. Ability to draw gun with either hand if injured
5. Easier to protect the gun in crowded environments
6. Eliminates an intentional (or unintentional) 'bump frisk'
7. Easier to reach in a grapple situation with an attacker
8. Faster draw when compared to other carry positions
9. Less conspicuous and easier to get into the draw position

 

[Losov]

Uh-huh. And I suppose you think that it makes it more difficult for a BG who knows where it's located to get if he wants? OK, go with that.

 

[Creature]

 

[poolingmyignorance]

means it's the bad guy has to be infront of you atleast.
I'd prefer to carry like that but it's FAR too hot 11 out of 12 months here in houston to do so. And unless your wearing a jacket under a shir is pretty difficult to get to like this.

 

[Rexster]

Appendix does have advantages; even Col. Cooper, in his article describing Bruce Nelson, mentioned this.

Even if one's hands are otherwise occupied, bending forward at the waist tends to cover the weapon from being grabbed. Obviously, a more-skilled opponent is going to present a formidable problem, regardless of one's carry position.