Someone grabs at your carry gun?

[allaroundhunter]

So, I am wondering how many people here that carry have had weapon retention training, and how you would react if someone were to try to grab your carry gun (be it OC or CC). Also, for those that haven't had weapon retention training, how would you?

Personally, I have not attended 'formal' retention training, but I have had a few lessons from an friend that is well-versed in the practice.

These actually came in handy when I was out on the farm and a man who was supposed to be helping with our horses tried to grab my pistol off of my hip. Bottom line, he grabbed at the grip, and I was able to keep the weapon in place and put him on the ground just using a little leverage and manipulating his center of gravity.

If someone was to grab at your gun, would you put them on the ground and think "that's enough", or would your next move be to draw your weapon in case that threat continued?

 

[jcwit]

Here we go with another commando thread.

 

[JERRY]

there are ways of breaking the grip of an attacker, of course you need a descent holster.

then there is the off hand weapon deployed, like a fixed blade....

 

[allaroundhunter]

Here we go with another commando thread

That is not the intention of my question. The main question that I am wondering about is the last one that I asked.

But shirt's reaction is most likely going to end up poorly for him.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I'd clamp my hand over his hand, and gouge out his eyes with my other hand.

That's fine--unless it's your drunk brother-in-law, who just said "Cool gun! Lemmmeeseetherre...." Sis might not appreciate her hubby being blinded.

Have been trained. Practice regularly. Non-destructive techniques designed to break the hold of the grabber, not his fingers.

Not necessarily the best answer, just my answer.

(Just so I know: how did the grabber know I have a gun, and how did he get close enough to my gun to grab it without me noticing? Preventing a gun-grab is better than defeating one.)

would your next move be to draw your weapon in case that threat continued?

Some gun grabs end up with the gun already out of the holster as you try to control it. But if the gun's in the holster, leave it there if you can: if he's close enough try to grab it, he's close enough to wrestle you for it if you draw it--and you'll have a higher chance of its firing once its out of the holster--but not necessarily in a desired direction.

 

[allaroundhunter]

then there is the off hand weapon deployed, like a fixed blade....

I often keep a knife in my off hand pocket, but have never trained in using it in weapon retention. Would you use it to cut at the arm/hand that is going for your gun as you try to retain control of it? Or stab at center mass?

 

[JERRY]

Preventing a gun-grab is better than defeating one.

this!

 

[JERRY]

what ever is available.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Just so I know: how did the grabber know I have a gun, and how did he get close enough to my gun to grab it without me noticing?

For this post let's assume that either he saw what he thought was a 'print' and acted on it or you were OC'ing.



And while prevention is the best protection (I have no disagreement there), there is a reason that you have trained in weapon retention, and that is why I am asking.

 

[Loosedhorse]

For this post let's assume that either he saw what he thought was a 'print'

He's still got to approach me close enough to grab without my noticing. I don't spend a lot of time in Condition White when carrying; in Yellow, I blade the gun away from someone approaching, or shield it casually with a dropped arm.

Your point is that it could still happen. Absolutely. My point is you can make that probablility very low...

Especially if you make sure you're not printing! My guess is the more training you have in attempting and defending against gun-grabs, the less you want to play for real.

 

[allaroundhunter]

My guess is the more training you have in attempting and defending against gun-grabs, the less you want to play for real

This is absolutely true. Having a gun gives you an advantage at a distance. Having to rely on weapon retention training in the real world means that you have lost that advantage....

 

[Mp7]

If sum1 manages to sneak up on you and does it,
use alle the hand-to-hand skills u have.
Be determinded to win.

No training no good. With any weapon.
Even more without one.

(second hand theory advice is no good, when it gets physical)

The end.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Here we go with another commando thread.

Derisiveness is an ill considered response to this topic IMHO. People who say things like this appear to me to be setting themselves among those gun owners who believe (or perhaps desperately hope) that because they carry a gun, the evil-repelling rays it emits will keep Bad Things far away from them. Or at least 21 feet, so they can leisurely draw, aim and fire the way they do every time they go the range.

Unfortunately life is not that kind to us, even if we carry guns. Attacks happen on the street because some predatory criminal decides when and where and who to assault. If that happens to someone who happens to be carrying a gun, whose awareness has failed sufficiently to pass the victim selection process at that moment, then that gun owner is going to be in a fight at contact distance.

When it's least expected, you're elected - but it ain't Candid Camera.

And if the attacker happens to feel the gun owners' concealed pistol in the course of the attack, it's instantly going to turn into a fight over the gun.

And there we are.

It CAN happen to you. Please don't make the mistake of thinking it can't, or won't. There's some outstanding training available in retention for armed citizens and gunfighting at zero to five feet. My personal recommendation for this sort of training is Southnarc (http://shivworks.com/ - the page seems to be under revision currently, so patience is a virtue), but others offer it as well.

My guess is the more training you have in attempting and defending against gun-grabs, the less you want to play for real.

No guess about it. Iron clad guarantee.

This stuff is important for several reasons. If it does happen to you, you need to know how to retain your gun and protect yourself at the same time - how to keep your feet, keep your gun, avoid being knocked down, tripped or stunned. You need to know how to open up enough space in the midst of an attack to draw and shoot from retention, without shooting some part of yourself and without having your gun snatched or disabled in the process.

A certain amount of this material might well be counterintuitive, especially to people who have had various other kinds of training. It needs to be learned, and practiced, in order to be readily available if needed.

Chances are it won't be needed. But, like a concealed pistol, if this skillset is ever needed, it will be needed very badly, and will need to be demonstrated quickly and in a reflexive manner.

 

[PowerG]

The problem with open carry, for me. Be aware gang members in prison practice disarmament techniques.

 

[conw]

Well said Lee!

In-holster weapon retention can be done by compressing the torso and clamping your elbow down hard onto the holster. The grabbing arm may be trapped under your forearm. You can twist against his elbow and drop your hips to cause some structural damage. Aside from that if you apply this right, the gun isn't going to leave the holster, so just hang on and maybe do some damage or draw a knife with the off-hand.

Credit for this goes to Southnarc. When he demonstrated it, a much bigger guy actually picked him up off the ground a few inches with one arm, trying to get the pistol out.

Regarding a few of the responses in the thread...1) "doing damage" with strikes won't keep your gun from getting grabbed...2) those who would attack you on the street are not all what you would call "mopes" and 3) blading the hips restricts mobility and makes one vulnerable to takedowns and tackles and tripping.

 

[Diggers]

There are alot of techniques out there to deal with this.

For the regular CCW concealed carry folks I would suggest they learn 2. One to deal with a grab from the front and one for a grab from the back. A good holster with at least one retention system is important here too.

Check out youtube there is actually quite a bit on there about this topic.
There are some PD training videos on weapons retention too.

I'm sure there are classes around also.

You do have to practice this stuff to make it effective, so get together with a friend and a FAKE gun and practice the moves.

 

[1911 guy]

Assuming it is an actual grab attempt and not the obnoxious brother in law, my two methods are hand to hand grappling and a fixed blade knife that resides very near my off hand. And I'm getting too lold and worn out to grapple.

Weapon retention is serious business. Although the odds are low, when you do need the skill you will need it desperately and immediatley.

 

[ZeSpectre]

It seems to me that the simple answer is that you do as much as needed to regain/retain control of your firearm and not a lot more.
Unless we're talking about an actual attack in which case we're back to "do what needs to be done to stop the attack".

When I was working with law enforcement there was a "thing" with the young teen boys where it was "cool" to try and touch the gun. Not grab it or anything but it was sort of like "counting coup". That ended pretty fast after the second teen got busted in the mouth and then arrested for reaching for an officer's sidearm. Word got out fast that it wasn't a fun "game" at all but we all got a lot of extra awareness-and-retention training because of it.

 

[lemaymiami]

Lots and lots of info available on how to get a license to carry, along with plenty of recommendations on what to carry and the appropriate holster.... not nearly enough info on weapons retention, in my opinion.

I think anyone that decides to be an armed citizen needs to learn weapons retention as much as they needed to learn shooting basics - but I'll bet that not one in ten gets the training.... Police agencies have learned through long bitter experience how important this training is from academy basics to advanced skills that need to be re-freshed regularly. Offhand, I can't remember what the listed stats for officers killed with their own weapons is most years - but it's not good at all (and that was the case for my entire career, 1973 to 1995...).

An attempt to take your weapon can range from a simple quick grab all the way to a full blown deliberate assault. A serious offender doesn't need to be armed if he can get close to yours.... That sidearm is probably a greater threat to the one that carries it than they'd ever imagine.

You can learn a bit about various weapons retention techniques on your own, but I'd highly recommend formal training if possible. Add to that making a point of carrying concealed as much as possible. The weapon that isn't visible doesn't get grabbed at....

 

[Loosedhorse]

blading the hips restricts mobility and makes one vulnerable to takedowns and tackles and tripping.

Never said anything about "blading the hips"--not sure what that is. However, taking a "bladed stance" (boxer's stance, with gun-hip rearward) against an oncomer who has not yet declared his intentions has none of the disadvantages you suggest.

Assuming it is an actual grab attempt and not the obnoxious brother in law

If I may make an OODA-loop suggestion: if someone grabs for my gun, I don't want to be picking from a menu of what to do based on how much I like the guy, or how mad sis will be. A non-destructive retention covers all bases, and can be (with adequate practice) initiated "instinctively" as soon as the grab is detected.

Yes--I want to be just as explosive against my BIL as against a street thug: even unintentionally/drunkenly, BIL can kill me just as fast.

(Clarification: this is a hypothetical BIL; my real BIL is not a drunk, and is extremely unlikley to do something as dangerous as a "just for fun" gun-grab.)

 

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

WOW! Great thread and great posts here guys…

I had a guy on the street grab my gun one time. It was a REAL eye opener for me. But luckily, I maintained it and he went to jail.

That's why I believe that Weapons Retention is THE MOST OVERLOOKED aspect of Concealed Carry, and seemingly TOTALLY IGNORED by the Open Carry crowd, go figure.

I’d say take a class from SouthNarc for sure (you never know when you may have to cut someone off your gun).

Luis Gutierrez & Paul Sharp have a great program going with the ISR Matrix and DVD’s available if you can’t make a class. Just google ISR videos for a peek at their system.

Stay safe, guard that gun!

D.R.

www.TacticalShooting.com

 

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

People greatly overestimate their ability to get a knife into play, if the scene starts with a folding knife is not open. I can hit you many, many times while you try to do that…

Excellent point and I totally agree…

If you will just wise up enough to use a front pants pocket holster, nobody is going to be trying to grab your holstered gun.

Good point, concealment (and not advertising the fact you have a gun) is good way to avoid the problem.

www.TacticalShooting.com

 

[ball3006]

I only conceal carry so I doubt if anyone would notice I have a gun. I am a 250 lb, 6 ft powerlifter so they would have a tussle on their hands. That is if they can get past the knife I have in the off side pocket.....I only OC on my own land. I would never let someone I did not know get that close.....chris3

 

[henschman]

I suppose I would try to break their grip and rotate my gun side away from the attacker, keeping them at bay the best I can with my off side, while drawing and firing as quick as I can, probably from down low so I don't shoot my off-side arm. If they turn loose after you pop them you can take a better grip, stance, and sight and end the threat.

 

[Sav .250]

He grabbed for your "carry" ...why? You set the stage but didn`t close the door.