Someone grabs at your carry gun?

[allaroundhunter]

He grabbed for your "carry" ...why? You set the stage but didn`t close the door.

After he was on the ground and almost at gunpoint he quickly apologized and said he had just wanted to look at it.....stupid reason to almost get yourself seriously hurt or killed.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Are you as alert as you think you are? A golden oldie from TFL that's worth a review...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400992

And a recent newspaper story that might shed some light on how close "contact" really is -
http://www.wsbt.com/news/wjw-akron-...ex-offender-gun-txt,0,3532432.story?track=rss

 

[conw]

Luis Gutierrez & Paul Sharp have a great program going with the ISR Matrix and DVD’s available if you can’t make a class. Just google ISR videos for a peek at their system.

I second this.

Loosedhorse: putting one hip behind the other is "blading the hips." E.g. a boxer's stance, as you mentioned. The reason boxers use the bladed stance is because they don't have to worry about takedowns or crashing into people. Boxing is restricted and allows for a stance that "games" the restrictions, due to limited clinching, no takedowns, etc. The bladed stance sets you up better for feints, weaving, better reach.

In sports where people do crash into each other, they keep their hips totally square 99% of the time. This is because when you are playing football or MMA fighting you don't want to get knocked down...bad stuff happens when you get knocked down.

"Crazy Monkey Defense," boxing refined for MMA fights

Linebacker stance, ready to crash into someone. If this guy crashed into someone with bladed hips they would go straight to the ground.

Even if blading the hips worked for gun retention - which if you watch gun-grabs it really doesn't, because someone can crash the line and get their hand around your waist quite easily - it telegraphs "gun" and screams "cop," to criminal types. Especially if you drop your strongside hand to hold the gun as you do the blading stance.

I'd much rather use an effective technique for retaining the gun (elbow clamp/arm crank retention) with a stance that's proven to keep me upright (square hips), than use an ineffective method (blading hips) and end up on the ground.

BTW, lest you think I'm picking on you Loosedhorse...I'm not. What I see as your misconceptions happen to be shared by others, and I say: let them judge the weight of evidence presented in discussions on S&T, and make up their minds. You, as an individual, appear to be set enough in your ways that I am not really trying to persuade you since I think you are pretty much closed off to other approaches, regardless of proof. If this means you want to stop discussing matters where we differ, you're welcome to not reply. But I suggest that if you do reply you provide some decent backing for your statements, so that others can evaluate the arguments on their merit, rather than viewing the discussion as an "argument" between two individuals. That type of discussion tends to lose its educational value rather quickly

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

That's why I believe that Weapons Retention is THE MOST OVERLOOKED aspect of Concealed Carry, and seemingly TOTALLY IGNORED by the Open Carry crowd, go figure.

Any holster I use for OC has some form of retention, whether it's a thumb break or a button retention and I watch people like a hawk. I carry my knife only clipped to my left pocket and I nearly always use it left handed now, I'm actually starting to find it awkward to use it right handed.

 

[Loosedhorse]

The reason boxers use the bladed stance is because they don't have to worry about takedowns or crashing into people.

Perhaps this is again semantics, and bladed means something different to you than to me.

I have boxed (not well) and I have wrestled (better, but many moons ago). I presume you'd agree that wrestlers need to worry about take downs and being crashed into. Even though you say boxers don't have to worry about that, the stance was similar: one foot forward, one back, hips (because of that) slightly turned, feet a bit more than hip-wide, weight centered. (By the way, I have been crashed into and head-butted as a boxer; so I did worry about it.)

Wrestling is IMO particularly relevant regarding gun grabs: I wanted to keep his arms away, not let him establish good holds, and yet be mobile. Yet, I did not linebacker pose (most of the time; the stance changes).

Linebackers have to deal with an entire field, and pursue a target who's trying to avoid them. Wrestlers and boxers work in a smaller space, and deal with an attacker who's coming at them specifically.

I also play soccer. Defense. There, I often use a bladed stance to "direct" the attacker: as I intercept him, I want to force him to "choose" to advance (avoid me) on the side I prefer: away from the center, or toward another defender.

Similarly, if an attacker comes at me, I want to direct him, so he has more access to my non-gun hip and arm, and less to my gun side. YMMV

appear to be set enough in your ways

I guess, if I prefer what I have been trained to do and practiced for many years over the advice of a well-meaning person who hasn't actually seen me, but still thinks I should change--if that is "set in my ways," well, guilty again.

You do want you want. I've got me preferences, even though you label them "misconceptions."

it telegraphs "gun" and screams "cop,"

If the attacker is testing me, just the fact that I've noticed him will often cause him to pick an easier target. If he's "sharp" enough to mistake me for a cop because I shifted my stance--maybe that misimpression will deter him further? Sounds like an advantage.

Perhaps your point is that if I instead get into "linebacker pose," he will assume I'm an unarmed MMA fighter, and run away screaming?

But I suggest that if you do reply you provide some decent backing for your statements...

Condescending, it seems to me, that you feel giving me this "advice," is both necessary and your place. I wonder if next you will pass judgment on whether my "backing" above was "decent" enough...

 

[Fred Fuller]

A little more light, and a little less heat would be helpful here. Let's not make a difference of opinion over theory and practice something personal, please.

 

[Strykervet]

I'm gonna treat him like any other person that touches me --I'm gonna floor him. If he stays down and is submissive, I'll walk off. If he continues the attack, I'm doing what I need to in order to stop it. If drawing is what it takes so be it. If it happens on my property, he'll get some stern warnings as he's being dragged off the property by his collar.

Whatever the case, he is NOT grabbing and taking control of my weapon. For any reason.

I don't let people get that close to me in the first place, and if they do, I stop them and start asking questions. If they ignore me and I back up and they continue, I have no problem putting them on the ground. Sorry to be the one to break the news, but I don't walk around armed so that strangers can fondle me and grab for my junk when they please.

If you reach for my weapon, expect a visit to the hospital. You may or may not get to stay the night, but you'll definitely be going in for a checkup.

BTW, I carry concealed IWB. I try to conceal well, but if the wind blows so be it. When I do carry open, I ALWAYS use retention! I'll go so far as to say that if you carry open in public, and you use no retention, then you are being not only unsafe and stupid, but you are teaching others to be unsafe and stupid too. This should be called "Hollywood Carry". They set the bar as low as possible regarding gun safety, they DESERVE a carry mode be named for them.

Also, when you blow me off as crazy or whatever and then you go out in public and get in a struggle when someone pulls your pistol from behind you (how comforting that must feel when out and about...) and in that struggle I or my loved ones get shot by accident, I'm blaming it all on you, and suing you for all your worth.

Get a retention holster for open carry folks. Police yourselves.

 

[Strykervet]

After he was on the ground and almost at gunpoint he quickly apologized and said he had just wanted to look at it.....stupid reason to almost get yourself seriously hurt or killed.

That is what he told you from the submissive position. What is he gonna say, "Drats! Foiled again!"? Most people ask you about it first, THEN ask, usually sheepishly, if they can check it out. Most expect a "No, sorry".

Consider yourself lucky to be ignorant of what would have happened had he been successful.

You had this problem on your own property! That would be the ONE place where I would think open carry with no retention is okay... But when you invite people on your place, I guess it kind of becomes public in a way. In which case I guess I'd conceal or opt for retention.

For those interested, I like the Serpa Lvl.2 for the Glock. Seems like they were made for each other. Not a big fan of thumbstraps and the secret code/puzzle locks though. I don't like retention holsters in general, but I view them like condoms. Concealed --out of sight, out of mind, may not need them. But in the open... most men don't like them but wouldn't hesitate to use them if going into ugly territory, but looking back on it, they seem the safe choice for all occasions.

 

[Grey_Mana]

You can work backwards:
What would you do, if you are unarmed (for whatever reason) and somebody smaller/less fit than you is open-carrying a pistol and is trying to bully you? The guy (or girl) is getting in your face, being aggressive, starts threatening you? If the situation gets to the point where you decide to observe-orient-decide-act in self-defense, what are you going to do? You are going to minimize the chance of getting shot. If you don't think you can get away safely, and you're afraid of getting shot, what are you going to do to the nearby smaller weaker sicker threat?

Yep, that is what somebody bigger and stronger is going to do to you, if they feel (for whatever reason) that they want you not to have your gun anymore.

 

[Pyro]

Dunno why someone would want to do that.
I'm not too worried about it since people are generally smarter than that.

But if it were to happen it all depends on who is involved, where they are, the situation, etc...

 

[Farb]

If you're reaching in my pocket you had better be either my wife or a VERY CLOSE friend. Otherwise, you've got troubles coming your way.

That assumes concealed carry only. OC? How do you let your strong side get compromised when you're carrying openly?

 

[cor_man257]

During MP school we were taught retention techniques that involved securing the hand on your weapon.
-If they have their hand on it, hold there hand there.
-Then with your other hand, bring down a knife edge hand on their wrist while you bring your hip in the opposite direction. This should break their hold.
-Release their hand, push them back to get your space. Draw. Your now in control of the situation.
*Or you could continue to control there hand, bend their wrist, lock out their elbow and bring them to the floor with a thud. Either way your back in control.

Thats a grab from the rear. A grab from the front would be similar, except my strike would be a knife edge hand to the neck, or an elbow to the floating rib. Essentially they are the same however.

While deployed I carried a KaBar TDI. Its a law enforcment knife specifically designed for weapons retention. Carried on the nonfiring side, one can secure the hand with your firing side, rotate the hip away, and deploy the KaBar in one swift movement. The blade could then be used on the wrist, forearm, or bicept. Once further rotated it could be used on more of the body until the threat was ended.

When not wearing gear, and working with Iraqi Police, I carried it nonfiring side, and used a Serpa Blackhawk paddle holster with lanyard on my firing side. That weapon was not going to be taken from me.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Perhaps this is again semantics, and bladed means something different to you than to me.

I have boxed (not well) and I have wrestled (better, but many moons ago). I presume you'd agree that wrestlers need to worry about take downs and being crashed into. Even though you say boxers don't have to worry about that, the stance was similar: one foot forward, one back, hips (because of that) slightly turned, feet a bit more than hip-wide, weight centered. (By the way, I have been crashed into and head-butted as a boxer; so I did worry about it.)

I agree. I never boxed, but did wrestle in school. When the vector of an attack can be anticipated, your ability to resist being knocked down is much greater with hips turned and one foot behind the other than it is facing with hips squared. You also lower your center of gravity.

That said, if someone grabs for my gun (concealed; pretty darn unlikely), it's 4 O'clock strong side-They're gonna get an elbow to the face.

 

[conw]

You guys must have been the exception to the rule with your "hips turned."

One foot forward one foot back is very, very different from hips turned...if you do a google image search (I'm tired of posting images) for "wrestling stance," you do see some people with hips slightly skewed, nearly all of them with one foot back (which is a good thing for balance), but I guarantee that the response to someone circling them is to keep the hips aligned as much as possible. Blading the hips does not provide for an advantage...slight, incidental blading? OK. Blading like in boxing or Weaver stance, not good.

Example of Weaver stance, not a good position to be in. But a lot of people do advocate this for "defending against a gun grab" or shooting at any distance.

"Too bladed" to "way too bladed, trying to move toward camera." Imagine (as the owner of the site says) trying to move away from the camera with this stance.

Two variants of the "wedge" position...IMO blading your hips even to the extent that the guy on the left has is a mistake if you aren't in the wedge position, and does not help protect against your gun.

Loosedhorse, sorry for coming across rudely. I was perhaps overly blunt, as well. I meant that up until now a lot of your posts simply said "I disagree with that based on my personal experience" (more-or-less), so I was urging you to back it up with some external references/evidence/logic.

 

[ChCx2744]

The only time this has ever happened is when one of my "friends" pulled it out once. I allowed it to happen, because I knew it was him and I knew he knew how to safely handle guns; or so I thought. After he pulled it out, he started waving it around in the air like a monkey with the last banana. I grabbed it by it's muzzle and took it away from him. I haven't spoken to him ever since. Shame too, because he was a good friend. On numerous occasions, I have went over the 4 rules with him and showed him how to safely unload and handle guns. I think the reason he did this is because there were some girls in the room with us and he wanted to show off. That does not excuse unsafe behavior. I just can not tolerate incompetence when it comes to my guns, regardless of who you are.

 

[allaroundhunter]

Consider yourself lucky to be ignorant of what would have happened had he been successful.

You had this problem on your own property! That would be the ONE place where I would think open carry with no retention is okay... But when you invite people on your place, I guess it kind of becomes public in a way.

I do not consider myself to be ignorant. As I went to keep control of the gun, I did not hold back even though I knew who it was that was grabbing my gun. I do trust him when he said that he was just going to look at it, but I am not going to let someone take a gun out of my holster without my permission.

I'm not gonna lie, I did become complacent because I was on my own property, and I placed too much trust into this man. The reason that I have the level II Serpa was because I did not want the gun to come out when I was riding on an ATV or running, but I am now a firm believer in its unquestionable advantage in retention from an adversary.

 

[Old Guard Dog]

TDI knife, accessed with your weak hand. Check it out.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

If someone was to grab at your gun, would you put them on the ground and think "that's enough", or would your next move be to draw your weapon in case that threat continued?

In AiKiDo, you learn that sometimes you have to hurt someone a little in order to not have to hurt them a lot.
So, if someone grabs at my gun I'll probably throw them hard and then try very hard to quickly put them at gunpoint. After all, you have to remember that some people are dumber and crazier than you'd like to think. Maybe this is one of them?
Worst case: they have a weapon, are an MMA fighter, or are off their meds and are having a psychotic break. Or a combination of the three.
Best case: you scare them and they never try it again.

I agree completely that people who carry should have some kind of retention holster.

 

[cor_man257]

Old Guard Dog

I already brought up the TDI. Do you carry the smaller or larger? And is it straight blade or serrated?

 

[D.R. Middlebrooks]

Ditto on the TDI knife it's awesome...

I prefer non-serrated for knife fighting. I tried to skin a buck one time with a Spyderco Police knife (fully serrated blade). Didn't work, knife kept gumming up.

I've been to a knife fight and didn't have a knife. I have since concluded this:

A man without a knife is only half dressed, and that's if he's got a gun.

www.TacticalShooting.com

 

[cor_man257]

I carry the smaller, serrated version.But I would perfer a non serrated blade if I could find one cheap.

And D.R. Middlebrooks hit the head exactly on why. A serrated blade is a pain in the rear to skin, or just generally cut with. You wind up doing something akin to sawing. Plus its a pain to sharpen.

 

[Loosedhorse]

"Too bladed" to "way too bladed, trying to move toward camera." Imagine (as the owner of the site says) trying to move away from the camera with this stance.

The photo on the right is obviously a still, but it might represent someone shooting while walking toward the camera, or while walking backward away from the camera. So, I can in fact imagine him moving away from the camera. (Of course, his "threat" seems to be to our right, so perhaps we should be imagining him moving to our left?)

Moreover, from my word "blade", you seem to have decided that my stance, which you have never seen, is either "too bladed" or "way too bladed" as it compromises my ability to move or defend against take-downs. Why would say that?

IMO blading your hips even to the extent that the guy on the left has is a mistake...

...up until now a lot of your posts simply said "I disagree with that based on my personal experience" (more-or-less), so I was urging you to back it up with some external references/evidence/logic.

So, you give the first statement above as your opinion, and then imply that the proper way for me to give my opinion is to "back it up." How 'bout I also just give my opinion, even if it does happen to be based on my experience? How 'bout letting others decide whether the proper way to give their opinions is to back it up with (what you consider) references, evidence, and logic?

You didn't come across as too blunt; blunt is fine. You came across as disrespectful: presuming that I must be saying something ridiculous, and that it was your job, as a superior authority, to point it out, and then tell me (urge me) how I "should" respond. That's what appeared rude.

But no problem. Bygones. Though I have found nothing in your posts to change my belief that having the gun hip away from an approaching stranger who has not yet declared his intentions is a good idea: JMHO.

 

[mgkdrgn]

These actually came in handy when I was out on the farm and a man who was supposed to be helping with our horses tried to grab my pistol off of my hip.

And just what did this "boob de jour" have in mind, besides suicide?

 

[allaroundhunter]

And just what did this "boob de jour" have in mind, besides suicide?

Honestly, I have no idea. I thought it was common knowledge, especially among those who owned guns of their own not to try to grab someone else's (especially if it is on their hip). But, he still tried.....

Again, he said he was just going to look at it, but I don't know how much to trust those words. I do know that whenever I see him out on the property helping with the horses I still immediately go to condition orange in case he tries something else...if he does do it again, it will be met with much more force.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Honestly, I have no idea. I thought it was common knowledge, especially among those who owned guns of their own not to try to grab someone else's (especially if it is on their hip). But, he still tried.....

Again, he said he was just going to look at it, but I don't know how much to trust those words. I do know that whenever I see him out on the property helping with the horses I still immediately go to condition orange in case he tries something else...if he does do it again, it will be met with much more force.

And you STILL let him work there?

Fool me once ... shame on you ... fool me twice ...