carebear
Member
Cub Scout, got my Wolf badge thingie
Concealed Carry & Homeland Threats?
- Thread starter papaone
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juggler
Member
One reason why I carry is that most places I go are 1hour+ away from home (downside of rural living is that EVERYWHERE is far away).
So it's not so much where I AM as where I AM NOT......as in at/near where the firearms/supplies are stored. Take out a couple of bridges and gridlock some roads and it's a long walk home.
So I have a backpack with gear in both vehicles that stays with the respective driver (his/hers). The firearms aren't to shoot down airplanes or take on suicide bombers, more along the line of the Clancy scenario that kulika mentioned.
Terrorists will stop what they are doing if enough people hit what they are aiming at......
So it's not so much where I AM as where I AM NOT......as in at/near where the firearms/supplies are stored. Take out a couple of bridges and gridlock some roads and it's a long walk home.
So I have a backpack with gear in both vehicles that stays with the respective driver (his/hers). The firearms aren't to shoot down airplanes or take on suicide bombers, more along the line of the Clancy scenario that kulika mentioned.
Only if you think you will save the world and get the girl in the end. Otherwise, what do have against being prepared?
Terrorists will stop what they are doing if enough people hit what they are aiming at......
Browns Fan
Member
Double Manduro,
Go ahead, be grumpy. Preach it, brother!
Go ahead, be grumpy. Preach it, brother!
jamz
Member
Well, it strikes me that CCW in the event of a terrorist attack is precisely like CCW in the event of a crime.
In x amount of the situation, the CCW will help. In x number of situations, it won't.
I think we all know the odds, roughly. Knowing that the odds are slim usually makes no difference to those of us who like to be prepared anyway.
-=JAmes
In x amount of the situation, the CCW will help. In x number of situations, it won't.
I think we all know the odds, roughly. Knowing that the odds are slim usually makes no difference to those of us who like to be prepared anyway.
-=JAmes
Matt Helm - good books in their time. I recall he never gave up.
Anyway, the role of the armed citizen clearly depends on the type of attack. You aren't going to down a hijacked Airbus with a J frame. I also doubt that any administration will push for CCW on planes.
However, with homocide bombers or gun based terrorist attacks, the evidence is clear.
1. You may recall the Texas Tower snipe at UT. Whitman killed many folk but was then taken under fire by citizens and according to a definitive history of the incident, no further kills occurred after that.
2. In three school shootings, armed folks stopped the incident from progressing. Sorry to forget the exact places and too lazy to look them up but, roughly:
PA - homeowner with shotgun apprehends school shooter
Vice principal retrieves 1911 and apprehends school shooter
Univeristy shooting - two guys (law officers but could have been CCW) retrieve guns from car and stop school shooter - played down in the media
3. Nazi attack on the Jewish Day Care in CA - dude picks that target as another Jewish site had armed guards.
4. Israel - citizens stop both gun attacks and homocide bombers - well researched by Don Kates
5. Anti-abortion terrorist attacks clinic - one of Ayoob's students was there as a security guard - easily could be an armed citizen - and stops further killing
6. Deacons for Defense - African-Americans arm themselves to fight off Klan-racist terrorists.
Thus, history is clear - armed folks have stopped terrorism. I recently heard a DOD expert talk about how we may see armed attacks in the USA or homocide bombers. He was a strong advocate of armed citizenry.
What more is there to be said?
We've seen the Al-Qaeda tapes - they attack and overwhelm sheep. But you know what, even if you get killed but shoot one of them in the process, is that a better outcome then being beheaded on the TV? Your choice!
Anyway, the role of the armed citizen clearly depends on the type of attack. You aren't going to down a hijacked Airbus with a J frame. I also doubt that any administration will push for CCW on planes.
However, with homocide bombers or gun based terrorist attacks, the evidence is clear.
1. You may recall the Texas Tower snipe at UT. Whitman killed many folk but was then taken under fire by citizens and according to a definitive history of the incident, no further kills occurred after that.
2. In three school shootings, armed folks stopped the incident from progressing. Sorry to forget the exact places and too lazy to look them up but, roughly:
PA - homeowner with shotgun apprehends school shooter
Vice principal retrieves 1911 and apprehends school shooter
Univeristy shooting - two guys (law officers but could have been CCW) retrieve guns from car and stop school shooter - played down in the media
3. Nazi attack on the Jewish Day Care in CA - dude picks that target as another Jewish site had armed guards.
4. Israel - citizens stop both gun attacks and homocide bombers - well researched by Don Kates
5. Anti-abortion terrorist attacks clinic - one of Ayoob's students was there as a security guard - easily could be an armed citizen - and stops further killing
6. Deacons for Defense - African-Americans arm themselves to fight off Klan-racist terrorists.
Thus, history is clear - armed folks have stopped terrorism. I recently heard a DOD expert talk about how we may see armed attacks in the USA or homocide bombers. He was a strong advocate of armed citizenry.
What more is there to be said?
We've seen the Al-Qaeda tapes - they attack and overwhelm sheep. But you know what, even if you get killed but shoot one of them in the process, is that a better outcome then being beheaded on the TV? Your choice!
bogie
Member
The terrorists seemed to be into symbolism, but at the same time, I suspect that they also noticed the damage done to our economy... I can see them attacking schools, shopping malls, large discount stores, etc... They're not going to need to do the homicide bomb thing - I can see a half-dozen of 'em walking into a shopping mall, and doing serious damage, and being able to leave before the police even react. I don't like to go to large gatherings of people...
The point is that these folks aren't stupid and they understand the need to get the greatest return on the investment in limited resources they have here in the U.S. When a single individual equiped with explosives or a tanker truck and a zippo can can kill hundreds at once and stike terror into everyone that sits in rush hour grid lock or enters a shopping mall why waste the lives of the few willing to die for your cause killing only a few dozen in a guns blazing waste. Each of those terrorists represent resources. Each of them represents a bomb or truck or plane or whatever force-multiplier you want to think of. Each with readily available resources can kill as many all by themselves as a suicide team of gun weilding terrorists.
If they get down shooting up malls then we know that they are out of better options and resources.
If they get down shooting up malls then we know that they are out of better options and resources.
Havegunjoe
Member
Just after 9/11 I made this suggestion...
I said I thought many of us would be willing, as part of the Malitia, to volunteer to make periodic checks on areas, buildings etc. that are considered targets. Also we should be trained and allowed to carry on planes when we travel. Of course I won't do any of this without being able to carry my gun. I of course keep my eyes open wherever I am these days, but I don't do anything formal in the way of checking out target ares. What a waste of resources I think. This doesn't have to be complicated, and we don't have to have sky marshall training.
Like I said, what a waste of a great resource for fighting terrorists.
I said I thought many of us would be willing, as part of the Malitia, to volunteer to make periodic checks on areas, buildings etc. that are considered targets. Also we should be trained and allowed to carry on planes when we travel. Of course I won't do any of this without being able to carry my gun. I of course keep my eyes open wherever I am these days, but I don't do anything formal in the way of checking out target ares. What a waste of resources I think. This doesn't have to be complicated, and we don't have to have sky marshall training.
Like I said, what a waste of a great resource for fighting terrorists.
Our way of life is at stake
The mall scenario I mentioned before is fiction, but it fits with the goals of the terrorists on several levels.
1. They would be striking at an icon of our society (shopping malls and consumerism).
2. They would be demonstrating that they can hit anywhere and any time.
3. People would then be afraid to go out in public to large gathering places.
4. The economic impact would be devastating since people would stay away from the stores, especially as we approach the holiday shopping season.
Remember Bin Laden himself was surprised by the fact the Towers came down as they did. He certainly wanted to strike the Towers as a symbol of America as well as the Pentagon and a capitol landmark (the plane that was taken back by the passengers), but even the sight of the Towers collapsing was a surprise to him.
It is not necessary for the terrorists to strike high profile targets to create even more chaos than we experienced on September 11th. We avoid bad neighborhoods because they are not safe. What happens when we do not feel that the supermarket is safe?
It is not uncommon for father to walk his child to school in Israel with an automatic weapon strapped across the father's back. We are lucky that we are not in that same level of constant peril.
The mall scenario I mentioned before is fiction, but it fits with the goals of the terrorists on several levels.
1. They would be striking at an icon of our society (shopping malls and consumerism).
2. They would be demonstrating that they can hit anywhere and any time.
3. People would then be afraid to go out in public to large gathering places.
4. The economic impact would be devastating since people would stay away from the stores, especially as we approach the holiday shopping season.
Remember Bin Laden himself was surprised by the fact the Towers came down as they did. He certainly wanted to strike the Towers as a symbol of America as well as the Pentagon and a capitol landmark (the plane that was taken back by the passengers), but even the sight of the Towers collapsing was a surprise to him.
It is not necessary for the terrorists to strike high profile targets to create even more chaos than we experienced on September 11th. We avoid bad neighborhoods because they are not safe. What happens when we do not feel that the supermarket is safe?
It is not uncommon for father to walk his child to school in Israel with an automatic weapon strapped across the father's back. We are lucky that we are not in that same level of constant peril.
Strings
Member
Umm... does anyone remember the upheaval in the DC area during the whole "Beltway Bushwacker" business? Now imagine a similar scenario, only nationally...
Walosi
Member
One tactic, described along with the shots from the AQ training clips, sticks in my mind. Five-man teams, with a vehicle (a "technical" pickup with a bed-mounted M60). These were used in a couple of the attacks on compounds in Saudi Arabia. The teams shot up gate and patrol security, while the "hero" drove his bomb into the populated part of the compound. Substitute "mall" for "compound" and "Wal Mart Supercenter" for the populated section, and you have a recipe for a strike in the soft part of safe, secure, small town America. While the wife has dredged through the stores, I have often stayed in the car, observing local life ... OK, girlwatching. In addition to the obvious, I've noticed that at any one time there may be one to three local LEOs in, or moving through the area. Also, I often recognize people from my CCDW classes - five in one short period one Saturday afternoon but one or two almost always. Too many other variables to predict the outcome of an attack, but the guns may be there, and the people who have them are certainly of a mind to be prepared.
Sam Adams
Member
Better to be prepared and not need to be, than to need to be and not be armed.
The impetus to finally get my CHL was the 9/11 incidents. I'm Jewish, and every time I attend synogogue I'm in a room full of prime targets for Moslem extremists (and others as well, but I'm only realistically concerned about the Moslem variety). Several others that I know of are also armed (and, I'm sure, several that I don't know about). Even our rabbi carries (though, in his case, not on Saturdays, as that would violate the Sabbath-but rest assured, many of us carry on Saturdays anyway).
I may never need to use my carry gun to fend off an attack or actually shoot some SOB, and I sincerely hope that this is the case, but you never know. Packing a gun is like wearing a seatbelt: most people never need them, but those who do REALLY do. Since we don't know whether we will fall into the "need" or "won't need" catagory during any point in our future, I prefer to follow the Boy Scouts motto: Be prepared. (and, no, I was never in the BS).
I think there should be more education going on regarding this thread.
One idea would be more classes at ranges dealing with operating different types of firearms (how to operate the safeties, clearing jams, etc) just in case one is able to get his/her hands on a more powerful (read dead terrorist's) weapon. I know many people who are very well educated concerning the firearms they own, but know next to nothing about other firearms....
Another thing I'd like to see would be the gov't (or, for that matter, anyone who knows about such things) coming out and educating us about methods and operating procedures of suicide bombers. They don't just use trucks you know!
What would a bomber wearing one of those bomb vests look like? What clues can we be looking out for? What do the cases they put bombs in look like? What are the typical fuse devices? Some things I've seen from Israel appear that the detonator is outside of the bag, and the bomber must yank it to set off the device.
Granted, you're going to be in the ?????s if you have to deal with this scenario, but it could be a little better with some useful info.
Of course, I doubt that we'll ever see info like this, as it can be used by others in nefarious ways, but I thought I'd just put it out there....
One idea would be more classes at ranges dealing with operating different types of firearms (how to operate the safeties, clearing jams, etc) just in case one is able to get his/her hands on a more powerful (read dead terrorist's) weapon. I know many people who are very well educated concerning the firearms they own, but know next to nothing about other firearms....
Another thing I'd like to see would be the gov't (or, for that matter, anyone who knows about such things) coming out and educating us about methods and operating procedures of suicide bombers. They don't just use trucks you know!
What would a bomber wearing one of those bomb vests look like? What clues can we be looking out for? What do the cases they put bombs in look like? What are the typical fuse devices? Some things I've seen from Israel appear that the detonator is outside of the bag, and the bomber must yank it to set off the device.
Granted, you're going to be in the ?????s if you have to deal with this scenario, but it could be a little better with some useful info.
Of course, I doubt that we'll ever see info like this, as it can be used by others in nefarious ways, but I thought I'd just put it out there....
One other thing....
One may want to check out Krav Maga, a hand to hand combat system used by the IDF (www.kravamaga.com).
They deal with hand to hand, hand vs. knife, hand vs. firearm, and even hand vs. grenade (!!!!!)
You never know....always try to have an edge
One may want to check out Krav Maga, a hand to hand combat system used by the IDF (www.kravamaga.com).
They deal with hand to hand, hand vs. knife, hand vs. firearm, and even hand vs. grenade (!!!!!)
You never know....always try to have an edge
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