Concealed carry in IL

[Tom Bri]

Here in the Rockford area I seem to run into LOTS of people who support CC. Of course, I spend a fair amount of time in gun shops...

But seriously, even casual conversations that touch on guns bring up pro CC comments, and I am not leading them into it. I think that outside of Chicago it is not that hard a sell.

 

[Geronimo45]

You'll get CC when Illinois secedes from Chicago.

 

[Autolycus]

Jeff White: I wasnt aware that we had a stand your ground law. I take back my previous point about desiring one. Though a few of the things about defending your dwelling seem a little unclear to me. I think it should read if entry is made not necessarily a tumultuous / violent / rioutess entry.

I think using the FOID card as a CCW is a pretty good idea. However wouldnt the ATF or FBI have to recognize it as meeting the NICS requirements?

Getting the IL Republican party to clean up its act seems to be the hardest thing to do. It seems that they dont want to get their act together.

As for the police standards training boards criteria and mobile qualification units it seems that even though they took a local governments power they are still willing to unite against us. Perhaps we could find out what the standards are? If we do and then we can use those standards to say well anyone who can meet this standard is able to CCW. Just a thought.

We also need to change the IL constitution in regards to the RKBA.

 

[Jeff White]

Tecumseh,

I think the law is fine just the way it is. If you read down another paragraph you'll find this:

(2) He reasonably believes that such force is
necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

I think that all legitimate self defense situations are covered.

I think using the FOID card as a CCW is a pretty good idea. However wouldnt the ATF or FBI have to recognize it as meeting the NICS requirements?

Why? The FBI and BATF have nothing to do with any state issuing a CCW permit. Illinois runs it's own NICS system and it was in place years before the Brady Bill made it federal. The Feds are irrelevant and immaterial on this issue. I think you might be thinking of how the feds permit some states (not all) to waive the waiting period for purchasing a handgun.

Getting the IL Republican party to clean up its act seems to be the hardest thing to do. It seems that they dont want to get their act together.

If you were sitting at the top of a political organization and that position allowed you all kinds of perks and a very nice income from graft and corruption, would you willingly give it up? There are a couple splinter groups within the Illinois Republican party, but they and their more conservative ideas are continually frozen out. attempts to change the rules and bylaws of the state party to allow more grassroots participation have been tried, sometimes by people who have money and influence and failed.

You gotta pay to play... is the official state motto of both parties. Jobs and contracts with the state are openly bought and sold through the county party chairmen. Don't think for a minute that all the allegations about job and influence peddling against Blagojevich are new developments. That's the way things have been done in Illinois for more years then I can remember by both parties. And no it's not just for the big jobs. Want to hold a sign or drive a snowpow for IDOT? $1500 or so will guarantee you the job. Want a promotion once you're in the system? Get out your checkbook and make a contribution. Neither party is interested in changing things no matter how much lip service they pay during the campaign.

As for the police standards training boards criteria and mobile qualification units it seems that even though they took a local governments power they are still willing to unite against us.

Why do you say that? Besides I thik you misundertood what I was saying. When HR218 became law, many police departments refused to qualify their retired officers because of perceived liability. The same legislature that would never in a million years pass a preemption law to standardize gun laws throughout the state, passsed a law saying if the local units of government wouldn't qualify their retirees the state would. This was quite a victory considering Illinois tradition of home rule and allowing lessor units of government to have their say in many things.

Perhaps we could find out what the standards are? If we do and then we can use those standards to say well anyone who can meet this standard is able to CCW. Just a thought.

There is already a system in place to certify police firearms instructors. With some additional funding (provided by the applicants with licensing fees) the current system could be expanded. The current standard for a peace officer is 40 hours training and a shamefully easy 30 round qualification course. The same legislation that put the MTUs in the business of qualifying retired officers also mandated that peace officers qualified annually and set the standard. Before that the only thing that was required was the original basic training. Most departments ran qualification programs anyway and most of them had much higher standards then the one the state mandated.

I don't think you'd have any objection from the rank and file police officers to CCW for anyone that completed the basic course we do. The politically appointed chiefs would natuarlly back whatever their political masters wanted.

We also need to change the IL constitution in regards to the RKBA.

Agreed. But they made the state consitution very hard to change at the last constitutional convention.

Jeff

 

[Autolycus]

When you say that you dont think the rank and file officers would have a problem with CCW if we completed the same training I assume you mean the 30 round course? I know your an LEO in the Southern half of the state but I am willing to believe that here in the Northern half it will be an issue. Most cops up here seem to be anti gun.

I really think it is a cultural issue. We have to work on culture rather than a political party is what I am starting to think. I do understand about the party leaders not wanting to give up their seats but what is really bothering me is that the IL Republicans dont seem to concerned with cleaning up the party. And the GOP as a whole has all but given up on IL.

 

[Jeff White]

When you say that you dont think the rank and file officers would have a problem with CCW if we completed the same training I assume you mean the 30 round course?

No, I mean the entire 40 hour course. There is a lot more to carrying a firearm then marksmanship. In fact marksmanship is probably the least important aspect.

I know your an LEO in the Southern half of the state but I am willing to believe that here in the Northern half it will be an issue. Most cops up here seem to be anti gun.

No among the rank and file. I've been in classes with officers from all over the state. The guys and gals who work the street don't have any more or less of a bias then anyone else. I think you'll find that CCW is supported by the majority of the street officers just about everywhere.

I really think it is a cultural issue. We have to work on culture rather than a political party is what I am starting to think.

I agree. Believe me if we had to depend on Illinois republicans for our gun rights, we would have none. It's all cultural. Right now it's Southern Illinois Democrats who are uniting with the few republican legislators we have down here who are holding the line for us.

Jeff

 

[phorvick]

Re IL Police and their position on CCW.

Hmmm...I will be teaching the Utah CCW class on October 21 in IL....arranged by a police chief! So, there clearly are friends in the LEO community.

At one earlier class this Summer, the host gun club arranged for fingerprints to be done at the club...and an off duty State Police officer did the printing.

There are many friends in the LEO ranks...maybe not at the very top, but they are there.

 

[btsyshsbnd]

as someone who used to live in a state with ccw I was appalled when I learned that in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Illinois not only was I not going to be able to ccw but I had to have a permit (F.O.I.D. card) to even touch a gun in a store. I don't think we'll ever have enough support for ccw as long as King Daley the Second and his cronies are in charge of the state. what? you thought the gov. ran the state? I bet you think the capital is Springfield too.

 

[ilbob]

There are many friends in the LEO ranks...maybe not at the very top, but they are there.

Thats probably true. But police agencies are run by people selected by politcians and they want to keep their cushy jobs so they mouth the party line. And most of the time in this state the party line is pretty offensive to law abiding gun owners.

OTOH, outside of East St Louis, Chicago, and a few burbs, most of the police departments are relatively clean. If we ever got a change in the law, I think they would respect it.

 

[Autolycus]

ilbop:

The trick is to get those departments to speak up. If we could get a few officers to speak on our behalf I think we would have a fair shot.

I also seem to remember that someone was trying to get the law that allows alderman and the mayor to carry reappealed. That would be nice as well.

 

[RioShooter]

Vote with your feet

I'm sorry to say it, but I think it's a lost cause. I too, have roots in Chicagoland. The Democratic Machine is invincible. Chicago is a wonderful city, except for its' politics.

Save yourself from endless frustration, and move to Indiana or some other gun-friendly state.

There's still plenty of room in Texas.

 

[scout26]

I really think it is a cultural issue. We have to work on culture rather than a political party is what I am starting to think.

DINGDINGDING.... We have a winner !!!!!!

Watching Daley and Blagoevich doing the "Perp March" won't do anything for us as far as far as CCW is concern. Luis Guterriez, Jesse Jackson, Jr., Rahm Emanual, et al, are not going to suddenly "see the light" and come around to our way thinking, if and when Da Mayor and Administration Offical "A" go to Club Fed. The ones waiting in the wings to take over are just as anti-
2A/RKBA as who's in power now.

Outreach, education, and the working on the slow glacial change of cultural thinking. Each one teach one, each day.

I work on the west side of Chicago in a *ahem* not very nice neighborhood. I have spent a great deal time showing the positive sides of being a gunowner, hunter and responsible individual with the people that I work with, which are mostly black and hispanic, who have seen and heard only the propaganda that gets spewed out the fifth floor of City Hall on a "Daley" basis. (only gangbanger have guns, guns are bad, etc, etc ) We talk about the Cook County board, the city scandals, et al. and I slowly see the light bulbs come on when they really think about how they are getting screwed by the "Daley Machine". (property taxes, poor city services, etc). The whole 2A/RKBA is a sidelight to the bigger problems that they face as residents of Chicago.

Remember it only took a few hundred/thousand missionaries to convert all of Central and South America to Catholicism. That's the attitude we gunnies in Illinois have to take here in Illinois. We're out to save souls

 

[Deanimator]

I'm sorry to say it, but I think it's a lost cause. I too, have roots in Chicagoland. The Democratic Machine is invincible. Chicago is a wonderful city, except for its' politics.

I lived in Chicago until I went to college in Missouri in the '80s. I lived in Chicago again briefly in the '80s.

The wonderfulness of Chicago generally escapes me, mostly because of the Chicagoans.

You are 100% correct about the Democratic machine. The reason why relates to my comment above. The Machine endures because Chicagoans WANT it to.

 

[RioShooter]

The wonderfulness of Chicago generally escapes me, mostly because of the Chicagoans.

Wonderfulness:

1. Ethnic neighborhoods
2. Wrigley Field
3. Art Institute
4. Oriental Institute @ U. of C.
5. Museum of Science and Industry
6. Shedd Aquarium
7. Field Museum
8. N. Clark Street
9. Too Many Bookstores to List
10. Swedish Bakery
11. Marshall Fields
12. Michigan Avenue
13. Soldier Field
14. Greek Town
15. The Auditorium
16. Deep Dish Pizza
17. WLS Radio (before the talk format)
18. WGN TV
19. Mike Royko; RIP
20. The Chicago Daily News; RIP

I think you get the idea. I LOVE Chicago. But I wouldn't want to live there without CCW.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Guys, any kind of carry law is not going to make a difference and even with state pre-emption, will still be null and void because of two issues that the state screwed my former illinois brothers and sisters with. Those are 'subject to the police power' and 'home rule'. Illinois MUST change their constitution if they are to have any hope whatsoever.

 

[Deanimator]

Wonderfulness:

There were a lot of neat things to see and do in Berlin between 1933 and 1939 too. I wouldn't have wanted to live there either.

You talk about CCW, when you can't even OWN a handgun in Chicago for all intents and purposes.

I hate even to visit. I feel like William L. Shirer every time I go.

 

[RioShooter]

Quote:
Wonderfulness:
There were a lot of neat things to see and do in Berlin between 1933 and 1939 too. I wouldn't have wanted to live there either.

You talk about CCW, when you can't even OWN a handgun in Chicago for all intents and purposes.

I hate even to visit. I feel like William L. Shirer every time I go.

Obvious difference of opinion, without any personal attacks. That's what makes THR the best forum I've ever been on.

 

[mack]

As a resident of Illinois I think the likelyhood of a ccw law being passed here is more remote than ever. Yearly Chicago grows in influence and power due to three quarters of the population living within its political/socio-economic boundaries.

To understand how far it has gone - one only needs to know one fact - the governor of our state does not even have his office in the state capital in Springfield - he works and lives in Chicago - and only visits the state capital. Can you think of another state that would accept such a blatant act of disrespect. Not that long ago it would have been a political death sentence for a state wide office holder to be seen as being a pawn of the Chicago machine - now the governor doesn't even find it necessary to use the fig leaf of living downstate. The rest of the state is seen as a garbage dump for Chicago, only to be thrown a few table scrap promises in the case of a close election for governor.

Presently governor Blago - is up by double digits in the polls against his opponent and can outspend her four or five times over. He is under investigation as is Daley and the Chicago machine but no one seems to really care - as one after another the political bag men shut up and take the rap.

The media in Chicago are afraid to take on the machine and even joke openly about the corruption - essentially accepting that that is the way things are done. The general attitude of the average Chicago area voter is "well yeah they are corrupt but at least things get done and as long as it isn't my ox being gored I don't care."

The republican party is controlled by ensconsed power brokers who seem satisfied with playing second fiddle - accepting pay-offs and a smaller share of the pie to leave the political status quo undisturbed.

The parties have effectively insulated themselves from internal reform through rules changes that prevent challenge from outsiders even if they have money and organization.

A third party? In an election a few years ago dems and repubs effectively blocked a third party from the ballot in Illinois by tying it up in court - even though they had more than met all the legal requirements - however since it was tied up in court as "chance would have it," it wasn't ruled on until after the election - at which time the court ruled that yes they should have been on the ballot - of course the election was over by then. For winning though they third party did get a nice yep, you were right. Oh, and "if you want on the ballot for the next election, you can feel free to start the process all over again."

State law making rules and the State constitution have also been written or amended to effectively insulate Chicago from even the remote possiblity of the take over of the state government by any group hostile to the Chicago machines goals - (it takes a supermajority to pass any legislation that would over rule - home rule (certain cities are exempt - Chicago is one - from having to comply with certain state laws without the super- majority) and rules makers have decreed that firearm legislation that liberalizes possession and carry of firearms needs the super-majority - while laws that restrict them do not.

Illinois becomes more and more liberal - less and less a state - and more a play thing for the City of Chicago - our state senators represent Chicago not the state and are handpicked. Obama is being groomed for nation wide office maybe even President - because he is a minority and because his office is considered safe from any political assualt. I don't think it's even legal to criticise him in Illinois any more. Durbin can spew things that would get him arrested elsewhere in talking about our servicemen and women and in his home state there is a small murmurr of complaint then it is forgotten.

Aldermen and women in Chicago pass laws that make it illegal to serve/sell food that they don't like, violating the constitution as if it didn't even exist without a second thought.

The only hope for gun rights in Illinois is a cultural sea change and that only has a chance if:

- the gun rights issue is divorced from all other "conservative" issues
- there is a major grass roots gun rights organization built from almost ground zero in Illinois
- there is continued money and educational efforts made to educate the public
- there is a continued effort to involve more and more people in gun sports and to become gun owners
- that the above can be done while spending time/money/effort to maintain the status quo to prevent more anti-gun laws
- that the current power brokers in the democratic and republican parties are deposed
- that the power of Chicago is defused through infighting and/or division with the collar counties.

Is it possible ,yes - do I work for it, yes - do I expect it, no. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

If I didn't have joint custody of my children and have a requirement to live within 60 miles of their mother - if I want to continue to be with them - I'd be out of here. Since I'm here for the foreseeable future I will fight.

 

[Deanimator]

The media in Chicago are afraid to take on the machine and even joke openly about the corruption - essentially accepting that that is the way things are done.

That is the overwhelming Chicago attitude. My mother wears it like a red velvet cape. She's just baffled that I would think that corruption is WRONG, or that I wouldn't trade any of my rights for a city or state job.

The general attitude of the average Chicago area voter is "well yeah they are corrupt but at least things get done and as long as it isn't my ox being gored I don't care."

And even more importantly they say, "But at long as the [White / Black / Jewish/ etc.] guy I don't like's ox is being gored..."

Chicago is easily the most racially, ethnically and religiously bigoted city in the United States. Any town attractive to both Frank Collin AND Louis Farrakhan is fundamentally morally corrupt at its heart.

I don't call it "Chicago". I call it "Apartheid Chicago".

And on a humorous note, the sense of evil and corruption is only enhanced by the 311 S. Wacker Building http://www.emporis.com/en/il/im/?id=322531 that looks like Sarumon's tower...

 

[Autolycus]

It really does look like Sarumons tower!!!

I am starting to feel hopeless again. I think it is high time that we got organized and start to press for fair treatment. Perhaps we start to organize those fanny pack marches again? I figure if we can get 1000 people to do it we can get some press. Bad press is not going to hurt us any more since we are already vilified. Any ideas?

Perhaps we can contribute to senators outside of our state who will vote in favor of the national reciprocity bill. Then with out of state permits we will be allowed to CCW?

I am getting tired of living in a no CCW state. I was downtown earlier and hanging with a few friends in Logan Square. Its not that bad there but I sure dont feel that much safer over there. Next week I get to go see some family over in Cicero. I hate traveling there as well because I dont feel very safe.

 

[Deanimator]

I am getting tired of living in a no CCW state.

My mother is getting old. A few years ago, she asked me what I'd do if she couldn't take care of herself anymore. I told her she's perfectly welcome to move to the United States and live with me. I also told her under no circumstances would I EVER move to Chicago.

 

[Autolycus]

Thats why I have applied to a lot of out of state schools.

University of Washington
University of Nevada
Drexel in Pennsylvania
University of Miami (FL not OH)

Just want to leave this gun free paradise behind and move out of the boring old midwest.

 

[ajax]

I like many others I know would love to have CCW ,but lets look at the bigger picture for a moment. We are presently fighting to keep are firearms with H.B. 2414 looming over us like a ton of bricks. A similar bill was shot down some time back. Maybe i should rephrase and say narrowly shot down.

 

[Autolycus]

http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?ID=1870

H.B. 2414 is a dead bill apparently. At least the NRA has not mentioned anything on it since January 20th of 2006.

I think that perhaps the time is ready to start working hard for National CCW. This way perhaps we can get people who live in No CCW states and crappy may issue states a chance to exercise a right we have never had.

 

[BigFatKen]

Wisc vs. Northern Ill

Wisc vs. Northern Ill might be a good football game but we are talking CCW here.

IF Wisc dumps Doyle in Nov, who twice (or is it thrice now?) vetoed CCW, Wisc will have CCW soon.

Then the people of Cook County can proudly say they are the last of the holdouts.