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concealed carry in public schools Poll

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by 6.5x55swedish, Sep 20, 2009.

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Would you support concealed carry in public schools?

  1. NO and I do have kids in public school

    16 vote(s)
    3.4%
  2. No and I do NOT have kids in public school

    32 vote(s)
    6.9%
  3. Yes and I do have kids in public school

    189 vote(s)
    40.6%
  4. Yes and I do NOT have kids in public school

    229 vote(s)
    49.1%
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  1. 6.5x55swedish

    6.5x55swedish Member

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    I was at a show yesterday and was talking to a guy manning the Concealed Carry Coalition's booth and he said they had a petition going that I might be interested in signing. I went over to look at it and it was to petition the state to drop the ban on guns on public school property so that people could carry concealed at school. I looked at him and said that out of respect for the many people who have kids in school who probably would not want staff and teachers to be packing a weapon I would not sign the petition.

    My point of view is that if such a ban where to be lifted it should actually be because the parents of those kids requested such legislation, not be cause some Joe blow at a gun show thinks it is a good idea.

    So I am interested in what some of us pro-gun Joe blows think :D
     
  2. proud2deviate

    proud2deviate Member

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    Bad things happen to good people in nice places. I voted yes.
     
  3. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    People packing legally aren't a danger ... the real question is, "should criminals be allowed in schools" ... who cares what a law-abiding citizen might have tucked somewhere, when someone with no regard for the law will walk in with whatever they want.

    "gun free zones" don't protect anyone but the lawless.
     
  4. 6.5x55swedish

    6.5x55swedish Member

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    These where previously law abiding public school workers. This situation would have been terrible had school been in session at the time and several hundred kids would be in counseling and those who witnessed a guy killed in their school would have been affected for life.
    http://www.kentucky.com/179/story/824496.html
     
  5. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    And making the school a "gun (and knife) free zone" made how much difference?

    Perhaps we should declare schools as "murder free zones" instead and deal with the crime instead of restricting the tools non-criminals can carry?
     
  6. Jamie C.

    Jamie C. Member

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    I voted yes, and I do have a kid in public school, and other young relatives there as well. ( A nephew )

    As a matter of fact, I think that anyone who's gone to the time and trouble to follow the rules, obey the law, and get a permit should be allowed to carry in any public building anywhere in the state, as well as any public-accessible property in the state.

    The only exception to this, is that I don't think a person should be allowed to carry a weapon in a courtroom while proceedings are going on.

    Other than that though, any place a person is allowed to go should be okay.


    J.C.
     
  7. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    Why not?
     
  8. SKILCZ

    SKILCZ Member

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    Criminals don't obey the "Gun-Free Zone" laws, anyway, so it makes no sense to oppose allowing adults who legally carry everywhere else in society (including around kids) to continue doing so when they step onto public school property. Moreover, public schools are owned by the public (i.e. the taxpayers), so why should the public not be able to carry there? If I'm paying taxes for the school, I expect to be able to exercise my 2A rights there.
     
  9. scottaschultz

    scottaschultz Member

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    Two words: Kenneth Baumruk

    From "The Missouri Lawyers Media:
    "The Missouri Supreme Court has set an Aug. 7 execution date for Kenneth Baumruk, for his 1992 shooting spree in St. Louis County Circuit Court where he shot and killed his wife and wounded four others. During his divorce hearing in Division 38, Baumruk pulled out two .38 caliber revolvers, shooting and killing his wife"
     
  10. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    Seems like you don't have a whole lot of faith in your state's ability to weed out the bad apples during the permit application process, or in the school's ability to hire people we would want around our children.

    My daughter is 8 months old, so I don't have any kids in school yet, but I would be a hell of a lot more comfortable knowing that maybe one or two responsible teachers had the capability to put a stop to a school shooting incident. Every time a private citizen, teacher, or student (colleges) who is an intended victim of a mass shooter responds with a weapon it has worked out as well as can be hoped for. Compare that to all the times no one could fire back, and I think you'll understand why I fully support that petition.
     
  11. AK103K

    AK103K Member

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    Who says you cant carry in a public school?


    Pennsylvania Uniform Firearm Acts

    Title 18

    §912. Possession of Weapon on School Property.

    (a) Definition.—Notwithstanding the definition of “weapon” in section 907 (relating to possessing instruments of crime), “weapon” for purposes of this section shall include but not be limited to any knife, cutting instrument, cutting tool, nun-chuck stick, firearm, shotgun, rifle and any other tool, instrument or implement capable of inflicting serious bodily injury.

    (b) Offense defined.—A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if he possesses a weapon in the buildings of, on the grounds of, or in any conveyance providing transportation to or from any elementary or secondary publicly-funded educational institution, any elementary or secondary private school licensed by the Department of Education or any elementary or secondary parochial school.

    (c) Defense—It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose. (Added by L.1980, Act 167(1), eff. 12/15/80.)


    As with most of these type "rules", they all seem to have the "any other lawful purpose" clause (which is usually always hidden at the end and never cited when they do quote the cite), which leads me to believe that they cant prohibit it without violating your constitutional rights. The post office cites also have the same clause.
     
  12. Birdmang

    Birdmang Member

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    I voted "NO and I do have kids in public school," I don't have kids but I am a kid in a public school.

    I voted kind of wrong and read into the question a little differently.

    I don't think students should be able to CC in high school, ex. 18 y/o with a carry permit...bad idea.

    I believe that teachers and janitors and workers for the school should be allowed to carry at work.

    I believe that college students should be able to carry on campus, but there should be some kind of course you have to take about being safe and what to do in case of a campus shooting, because I have been somewhat involved with a campus shooting and it COULD be worse off if a student saw a student with a gun and didn't think through what to do before shooting.
     
  13. 6.5x55swedish

    6.5x55swedish Member

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    The difference is that people disagree frequently in the work place. I think that having concealed carry in the school system will naturally bring more guns into the school that otherwise would not be there and increase the incidences of co-worker shooting. These are teachers and school staff, not trained law enforcement.

    Micheal McLendon followed the law, got his concealed carry permit and then killed his mother and 9 other random people. Richard Poplawski also followed the law and got his permit and then killed 3 cops. The CC class is a joke as is the screening process is non-existent. The other thing you have to keep in mind is that in high Schools we have 21 year olds who haven't graduated, but would be eligible to carry concealed with a permit. These are kids who are not even responsible enough to take school seriously, but you would be okay with them legally packing guns to school.
     
  14. Gozer

    Gozer Member

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    6.5x55swedish - I hate to point out the obvious, but I rather suspect that the janitor in question was NOT legally armed in the school building that day, meaning the bans/rules/policies did no good in preventing the incident. And had it been more than a personal vendetta and he HAD cut loose during a school day, precious little would have stopped him. Not saying other armed folks on campus can change outcomes (the bad guy almost always has the advantage of surprise and initiative, and in many situations, such as a crowded cafeteria, it would probably be irresponsible to engage (at least at first, unless both you and the bad guy were clear between and behind) and better to focus on helping clear the area), but if there is a chance to prevent or limit a tragedy, I suport having that chance available.

    Personally, I would like for CCW holders to be able to carry on campus, both pre-college and college/tech schools. If you wanted to add some kind of rider that said you needed to be CCW for X number of years or older than Y or something like that in order to make other parents more comfortable, I would be fine with that, as long as the numbers were reasonable (as others have said, probably a good idea in fact). I could even be had for a special training class/endorsement requirement, again as long as it was reasonable.

    The only real exception would be a school that has strong perimeter security (metal detectors, etc.) - in those cases, where the internal environment is somewhat sanitized, the disruption and attention garnered crossing the perimeter with a permitted weapon would probably not be a good idea.
     
  15. 6.5x55swedish

    6.5x55swedish Member

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  16. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    scottaschultz, and you think a "no guns" sign would have stopped Kenneth Baumruk?

    Disarming citizens will not deter crime. Allowing citizens to legally carry can sure cut a crime spree short though.

    6.5x55swedish, I don't think any of those links you posted had anything to do with violent crime, so I really don't see the relevance.
     
  17. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    Most states with CC laws don't allow people under 21 to get permits. Even if they did, less than 1% of people eligible for carry permits get them, so it seems like kind of a non-issue.
     
  18. 6.5x55swedish

    6.5x55swedish Member

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    Bigfatdave:

    the relevance is in that the education system cannot screen and hire teachers who do not sexually exploit their students, but some think that a guy with a minivan that says "get your CCWP class" on the back can screen and train these teachers to be responsible with a deadly weapon in the class room?

    I could see putting a few teachers through a special police academy style training program and then allowing them to carry a weapon in class, but to just say "you has a permit, you can bring a gun to school" is ludicrous.
     
  19. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    It isn't the job of CC instructors to screen their students, it is the responsibility of the state and local law enforcement who issues the permit. The instructors can only screen for unsafe behavior. Why would you think that a firearms instructor is responsible for performing background checks and application processing for law enforcement?

    And my state has about eight pages of paperwork to fill out, after which the applicant waits about a month for the local police department or state police to follow through on the application and do a variety of background checks.

    Again, less than 1% of eleigible adults in any given area will apply for and get their carry permit, and those adults tend to be the best of the best in their communities as far as criminal behavior goes. I think you are really blowing workplace disagreements out of proportion and are being extremely unfair to our professional educators. Not all of them have brains, but they all have degrees and they all work with our children full time. If they can't be trusted to not shoot their co-workers over a disagreement at work then why the hell should they be trusted with our children at all?


    What guy in a minivan is handing out CC permits? why do you think firearms instructors are the people who determine eligibility for a carry permit? I think you should go do some actual research on CC permit laws from state to state and get back to us.
     
  20. greenlion

    greenlion Member

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    Just saying "let teachers carry guns" is so infantile it is laughable. I am a school teacher in a school where there is a good deal of rule breaking and some violence. I am also a concealed carry permit holder and have trained in self defense shooting for many years. Just thinking about having to actually use a handgun in a school setting with all the priceless, irreplaceable students standing behind the next wall, or around the next corner, makes me sick to my stomach. The person carrying the gun would have to be more highly trained than any SWAT officer, than any Navy Seal to be able to operate in such an innocent-dense setting safely. The few days of "training" that the state would obviously have to set up to register these people to carry in schools, would be just enough to get innocent students shot in the process of trying to stop an attack.
     
  21. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    Sexual indiscretion is not the same as murder. Obviously both are wrong, but you can't be serious when you construct a straw man argument against CC by claiming that some guy in a minivan is going around giving people undeserved and unscreened permits. Firearms instructors are not the people who issue permits.
    State and local law enforcement authorities, in my state the chief of police is usually the one who has the final say in the permit process, it is a shall issue state so anyone who completes the requirements and meets the eligibility standards will be issued a permit.
    This is a much better system than the inherently corrupt may-issue system in place in states such as California, where the issuing authority can refuse to issue a permit for any reason they like or no reason at all. Frequently the Sherriff will issue permits only to rich, famous, influential, and people who donate to his re-election campaign. Since the system is may-issue, it is nearly impossible to do anything about it, so ordinary people who want to exercise their right to self-defense are denied that ability while people who do favors for the Sherriff are given permits without any trouble.

    Do you have any familiarity with CC permit process? It involves a lot more than just heading down to the corner and picking one up for fifty bucks from ole Grungy Dave.

    You don't think that the level of concern teachers in general have for their students would make them more careful and more safety-conscious? Teachers have stopped school shootings on more than one occasion, one of the noteworthy incidents the vice principal had to run all the way to his vehicle off school property to retrieve his pistol, he made it back just in time to stop the student who was shooting and hold him for police. The shooter had a plan, it was to shoot a few people at his school then head across town to the middle or elementary school since police would be at the high school helping his earlier victims and looking for him. If the vice principal had been able to discretely carry his pistol at work, there is the very real possibility that the shooting would have stopped sooner.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2009
  22. M2 Carbine

    M2 Carbine Member

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    I'll tell a story on myself.

    Maybe a year or so after getting my CHL I was getting very comfortable carrying it. (45 Kimber Tactical Ultra)

    One afternoon a lady friend was taking me into town to get my car. On the way she was going to pick up her kids from a little church school.
    When we got to the school she asked me if I'd like to see the kid's school.
    I said, "Sure". Not thinking of my gun at all I followed her inside, where she introduced me to the teachers and I was joking around with the kids.

    Not until about half way into town, when I shifted position in the seat and felt the 45 did it dawn on me that I had gone in the school wearing my gun, a big Texas CHL No, No.

    That evening I told my friend, the lady's husband, that I had worn my gun into the school.

    My friend is a shooting buddy and said,
    "During the time you were in that school with your gun, that was the safest school in the state of Texas".

    I thought a moment and said, "I have to agree".
     
  23. mokin

    mokin Member

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    I've got a little daughter who just started pre-school and I voted yes, allow concealed carry in schools. I also have friends who are teachers as were my parents. I trust thier judgement. I know that the teachers really care about thier students and would do nothing to bring them harm (except for the miscreants reported on above). This extends to thier judgement as far as shoot/don't shoot situations. I highly doubt that a teacher, even if armed, would draw the weapon until the children had been moved to safety. The thought of being in a shootout in a hallway crowded with children like my daughter terrifies me. But, I think that as long as current security proceedures are followed and the children have been safely herded into classrooms and a pistol would only be drawn as a last resort the safety of our schools would not be compromised.
     
  24. freakshow10mm

    freakshow10mm member

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    Support carry in schools. My son is not old enough to be in school.
     
  25. 9MMare

    9MMare Member

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    Er, no to both.

    If we uphold the 2nd amendment, plenty of bad apples can get guns as long as they havent been caught yet. And my state also requires zero gun training.

    And again, it's silly to believe 100% in any organization to make perfect hiring decisions, esp anything with a beauracracy.
     
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