concealed carry + Minor traffic stop

[Jeff White]

Patrick Henry said;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff White
What do you personally know about people who commit crimes? How many years experience do you have in LE or corrections? Are you a criminologist? Sociologist? Time to put up or shut up Patrick. Let's see the creds that give you more of an understanding of the people who commit crimes then me.

I wasn't aware I needed to give credentials to express an opinion here.

Ordinarily you don't. However you just stated you have more knowledge about criminals then someone who has 22 years experience dealing with them. So it's only fair to ask you where you gained your knowledge. Come on Patrick, where did you get your knowledge of criminals? Have you ever even met one?

What I am saying is confirming somebody has a permit ought to markedly reduce that suspicion in your mind, at least insofar as fear of a violent confrontation.

All a permit means is that the person didn't have a record when he or she was issued the permit. I'll base my assessment on how dangerous a person might be on a lot of factors, but the fact that he passed a cursory records check isn't one of them.

CHP holders are NOT violent people.

I'm sure that officer Miktarian's wife and his three month old daughter are comforted by that every day.

The day an officer becomes complacent enough to let his guard down around a person simply because that person belongs to any group is the day he needs to find a new job.

And if you want statistics to prove that, I say just count the number of permit holders in this country. There's your statistic. You can have neither violence, alcohol, nor mental health history and get these permits.

It only took one CCW holder to murder an officer. Out of all those other permits out there nationwide, you expect me to believe that he was the one and only permit holder who shouldn't have had one? Are you in a position to personally guarantee the conduct of every other CCW holder in the country? I think you are only in a position to guarantee your conduct.

Even if you take the weapon I'm carrying, InTune is absolutely right, what if the guy has another gun in the car? In fact, I personally often do carry a second gun in the car simply because my carry piece is not easily reachable sitting down. My understanding is, in a simple traffic stop, you do not automatically have cause to search my person or my vehicle.

Who said that you get to remain in your car for the duration of the stop? You would most likely be in the backseat of the squad behind the cage. This eliminates the danger of you accessing other weapons that might be in the car.

Except that you don't ultimately decide whether I broke the law, but a court.
That's why I would be referred to as a "suspect." Until then I am no criminal. You have to respect people even if you don't trust them. I'm sure you do, but I'm just saying it.

When I stop you for a violation I have probable cause that a violation has occurred or you wouldn't be stopped. I suppose you are you're just a suspected speeder. Everyone is treated with caution.

Of course if police ask me if I am armed, I guess I would answer truthfully. But honestly -- and I address this not just to Officer White but to everybody -- I don't see that in a simple traffic stop, where I am otherwise compliant, the police have the right to disarm me. Imagine this: I'm not in my car but walking down the street and I'm jaywalking, so a cop stops me and starts writing a citation. I'm fully cooperative. Does he have the right to disarm me? Strictly speaking, I would think not. He cannot search or seize at that point. Now if I'm held at gunpoint and ordered to disarm, I guess I won't have a choice will I? Whether I will in fact disarm if requested is another matter...but I do not believe I am required to.

I certainly wouldn't advise making that argument on the street. Or in court for that matter. There are all kinds of precedents giving the police the ok to disarm for officer safety. I think you'd lose.

Jeff

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

he doesn't understand terry either

 

[Powderman]

Of course if police ask me if I am armed, I guess I would answer truthfully. But honestly -- and I address this not just to Officer White but to everybody -- I don't see that in a simple traffic stop, where I am otherwise compliant, the police have the right to disarm me. Imagine this: I'm not in my car but walking down the street and I'm jaywalking, so a cop stops me and starts writing a citation. I'm fully cooperative. Does he have the right to disarm me? Strictly speaking, I would think not. He cannot search or seize at that point. Now if I'm held at gunpoint and ordered to disarm, I guess I won't have a choice will I? Whether I will in fact disarm if requested is another matter...but I do not believe I am required to.

For the first two bolded parts in the quote, I suggest that you research Terry v. Ohio, cert. to the US Supreme Court, 386US.

I honestly don't think that you are aware that the causal factor in a traffic stop is an observed violation of the law. In effect, when we turn on the overheads and pull you over, at that point you are detained.

If we develop a "reasonable suspicion" at that point that you have committed/are committing/will commit a criminal act, then under the guidelines of Terry v. Ohio, we do what is known as a "Terry Stop", also known as an investigative detention, or a "stop and frisk". If you are in a motor vehicle and we can articulate reasonable suspicion, we can look at the "lunge" area of the vehicle--the area where you can reach while sitting in the driver's seat.

As for your last quote above, as far as you making the decision to disarm, let me give you a heads-up: If you are in the jurisdiction where I patrol and I find out you are armed--AND I move to disarm you, while performing my duty--please, for your own sake do NOT resist. Unless you have something to hide, it is not worth the injury you WILL suffer.

In other words, let me make it perfectly clear--in the instance noted above you WILL be disarmed. How we go about it depends entirely on your actions.

 

[evan price]

The thing that really gets me about this guy Thompson who killed Ofcr. Miktarian in Twinsburg, was the fact that he claims self defense.

In truth, Ofcr. Miktarian was found to have multiple bullet wounds to the head- one from a horizontal position, the others were found with the slugs buried in the blacktop under his skull. So it was one shot to drop him, the rest to finish him off. Sound like self defense to anybody?

There's a list of people who will volunteer to stick the needle in Thompson.

Thompson lost his Ohio CCW due to carrying a firearm in a Class-D liquor establishment, but was somehow allowed to perform a diversion program and have his permit re-instated.

Any further comments I have about Thomspon and that ghetto website are not High Road in the slightest.

 

[Intune]

JW-

There are all kinds of precedents giving the police the ok to disarm for officer safety. I think you'd lose.

I know he would and I'm not smarter than the average bear. Oops, I do believe that was a pun, BooBoo! No offense intended to LEO's, I trust that's not a negative moniker.

We can argue the semantics, nuances & righteousness of any given law for days on this board (and often do) and nothing more than feelings (don't even think of that song... Too late ) are at risk.

Whether I will in fact disarm if requested is another matter...but I do not believe I am required to.

DO NOT, DO NOT pull this stuff on the side of the road or anywhere else whilst detained by an LEO. You do yourself and them an extreme disservice with potentially life-threatening consequences for everyone involved, possibly even innocent bystanders. It's just not smart folks. If you have a legitimate gripe it will still be just as valid sixty days later in the calm, hopefully reasoned halls of justice. :banghead:

 

[dalepres]

http://www.theledger.com/article/20080909/NEWS/809090187/0/SPORTS0199

Officials: Deputy Shot Himself In The Leg

Published: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 at 11:55 p.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, September 9, 2008 at 11:55 p.m.

Authorities say a Martin County deputy accidentally shot himself in the leg.

Deputy Daniel Foote was investigating an assault complaint at a condo complex Monday night, and a woman he was questioning acknowledged that she had a gun in her vehicle. When Foote went to remove the .38 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver from the trunk, authorities say the gun discharged and hit him in the left leg.

Martin County Fire Rescue transported Foote to a hospital. A spokeswoman for the sheriff's office says the deputy's injuries are not life-threatening.

I rest my case. Cops should be disarmed by the citizen during all traffic stops.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it true waqs one of the best things my dad attempted to teach me with limited sucess

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

and there is a thread with more details on your "case" search feature is great though in this case not your friend

 

[deaconkharma]

Case mentioned is prime example..

rather than argue their right to disarm. just figure out how not to inform (legally) and end the question until the law can be changed. Police are no more capable than anyone else in the safe handling of firearms. Though most of the LEO's will tell you otherwise despite constant contrary evidence. If you don't want to be forced to inform, just put it in a place where you don't have to. Work to get the law changed and save yourself the usual "I am the law and you WILL lose" argument from the LEO faction.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

ahhh another who didn't read the last post with details on "the case" them details can be pesky a real buzzkill

 

[daorhgih]

One For The Record Book.

On a well travelled turnout lane of a major hiway here, on a foggy night I flipped on my highbeams to find the worn-off paint on the curb of the lane. There was a plain blue sedan ahead of me but he was not turning off, as I was. I found my lane, and had no sooner swung into it, than the sedan slammed on his brakes, letting me slip past him on his left. "Strange", I tho't. Well, long story short: he was an off duty leo, in uniform but private vehicle, and he accused me of "beaming" him. I stopped in a safe spot and turned down my window. "Hi", "Hi", BlahBlah and all that. "Sir, I stopped you for "beaming" me back on the hiway." "Oops, sorry Sir, but that is not what I did. I wanted to avoid the curb on a foggy night." "O.K., but are you armed, sir?" "Yes, officer, I am." "Where is the weapon?" "Sir, I have several here in this brief-case beside me." "May I see them please?" "Of course, and here is my license to own." "I'll be right back." "I'll be right here, sir." I had just bought a G-21, had a 9mm P38, AMT backup 45, and two other Glocks in the case, along with several loaded magazines. I watched as the leo dispensed the magazines (no gun had one round chambered), and called in all of them. Only the new G-21 didn't show, but I had bill of sale and time-stamped receipt, so no problem. Then he brought everything back to me, unloaded and all in the bottom of the case. "I just don/t want anyone to shoot at me tonight!" Chuckle. Then came the reason for the weapons check: "Sir, you have an improper warning sign on your window. It says that you carry only $20 worth of ammo; I'd say that there is at least $40 worth in there! Have a good night."

 

[pernicus]

i usually keep my permit next to my dl in my wallet and hand him both when asked for my drivers license