Concealed Carry options

[orpington]

I know of a Smith & Wesson Model 1903 in .32 Smith & Wesson Long for sale really cheaply and I have considered it as a CCW. It was a popular choice for a CCW in years past. I like vintage firearms (and this one dates from 1906 - 1909), so it is definitely my style! However, my research seems to classify .32 Smith and Wesson Long as being an anaemic calibre with regards to self defense. So, what classifies a round as anaemic for self defense purposes -- e.g., is it a certain velocity or energy? If so, what are the general rules of thumb here?

Obviously, for self defense, shot placement matters, and so a poorly placed .44 Magnum shot could, in theory, be much less effective than a skillfully placed .22 short round. Having said that (not to sound gruesome), how does the human body react to various rounds, if not really skillfully placed? I mean, a poorly placed round still would cause distress, I would think. Or maybe adrenaline just kicks in and a wounded individual just keeps on coming regardless of the extent of injury, unless function is impaired due to physical handicap (shot placement causing broken bones/shattering both tibia/fibula, etc.) or death. I know this probably is an unpleasant topic, but being underpowered in a self defense situation is probably far more unpleasant.

 

[Skribs]

From what I can tell based on years of armchair commandoism (i.e. forums and wikis), the most important aspect of terminal ballistics (for those who say "shot placement", I don't think that counts as terminal ballistics) is getting at least 16" of penetration. Loads that are incapable of doing that in a JHP are generally considered anemic. 9x19mm seems to be about the standard people usually agree on, although some say the lower power .380 ACP and/or .38 special are the lower limit of non-anemic rounds. The reason 16" is the magic number is that is what the FBI has determined is recommended in order to hit the heart if you hit the target at an oblique angle and have to go through an arm first.

While energy isn't the entire equation, let's look at .32 S&W long vs. 9x19mm. Using the references I mentioned earlier, I'm looking at 99-117 lbf of energy vs. 518-570 lbf (not including +P or +P+). Granted, this is a small sample size, and the smaller diameter .32 does not need as much energy to penetrate due to it's smaller surface area, but the round is much weaker than standard service calibers. Comparing it to others in the .32 range, we have .32 ACP (123-177 lbf) and .327 federal (435-702 lbf).

If you got the revolver and used hot FMJ loads, it might penetrate deep enough. The 16" recommendation is for worst-case scenario (i.e. going in at an odd angle through an arm or something) in order to hit the vitals, so in most situations it would do the trick. In most situations, hopefully you'll be able to scare them off simply by having a gun, firing it, and/or hitting them. However, based on the numbers I'm seeing, I wouldn't recommend it if you have other options available.

---

To answer your question re: the human body, there are 2 ways to stop an attack: 1) cause enough damage to the central nervous system to physically stop the attacker (known as a physiological stop or involuntary stop). This could be from damaging the brain or spine, or from causing enough loss of blood pressure in the brain that the attacker cannot continue. The quickest way to do this is to damage the brain or the heart; the heart is the "better" target to aim for because you still hit something important if you miss. There's also the case for breaking bones, but stopping the person altogether is preferable. The second way to stop an attack is known as a psychological stop or voluntary stop. That's when the bad guy says "I don't want to get shot" and runs. Or when he says "oh crap, he's shooting," and runs. Or when he says "oh crap, he shot me," and runs. Or instead of running falls to his knees and begs you not to shoot him, etc. etc.

Hope this answers your question.

 

[WC145]

Look at the currently available .32 Long ammunition and compare the projectiles and ballistics with the offerings in popular contemporary self defense ammo in todays standard calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .38SPL, .357MAG) and see how it stacks up. I think it will be obvious where the .32 Long falls short.

 

[shadow9]

While energy isn't the entire equation, let's look at .32 S&W long vs. 9x19mm. Using the references I mentioned earlier, I'm looking at 99-117 lbf of energy vs. 518-570 lbf (not including +P or +P+).

518-570lbf NON-+P?! In 9x19?? Are you shooting it out of a carbine??

RE: OP

The .32 S&W Long isn't going to make someone who's bent on hurting you stop, unless it's a CNS hit (spinal cord or head). Seeing as your target window to get to the CNS through the front of the head is very small, you're relying on body shots...which the .32 S&W long won't be too good with. Unless you nick the aorta, or put it into the stomach to let the acids seep around, it won't be giving enough physical discomfort to an aggressive assailant to get them to back off. Even the leg/knee shots are risky - since there isn't enough mass or momentum from the round to inflict heavy damage to the dense femur.

I'd get it for a fun piece, and if you want to reload for it (as factory ammo is VERY hard to come by) so you can become a good enough shot to place trick-shots in SD scenarios, I'd CCW it.

 

[Skribs]

My bad, that was the J column. 393-420 lbf.

I am not doing good tonight on this thing. I should hang up my hat on here.

 

[PabloJ]

I know of a Smith & Wesson Model 1903 in .32 Smith & Wesson Long for sale really cheaply and I have considered it as a CCW. It was a popular choice for a CCW in years past. I like vintage firearms (and this one dates from 1906 - 1909), so it is definitely my style! However, my research seems to classify .32 Smith and Wesson Long as being an anaemic calibre with regards to self defense. So, what classifies a round as anaemic for self defense purposes -- e.g., is it a certain velocity or energy? If so, what are the general rules of thumb here?

Obviously, for self defense, shot placement matters, and so a poorly placed .44 Magnum shot could, in theory, be much less effective than a skillfully placed .22 short round. Having said that (not to sound gruesome), how does the human body react to various rounds, if not really skillfully placed? I mean, a poorly placed round still would cause distress, I would think. Or maybe adrenaline just kicks in and a wounded individual just keeps on coming regardless of the extent of injury, unless function is impaired due to physical handicap (shot placement causing broken bones/shattering both tibia/fibula, etc.) or death. I know this probably is an unpleasant topic, but being underpowered in a self defense situation is probably far more unpleasant.

While your question can't be answered there is a fella who is contemplating selling R9. It comes in respectable caliber and manner is which it can be concealed is limitless.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

Read why the U.S. Army went from using 38 revolvers to using the .45 cal GI 1911 and you will see why the 32 is not a good idea for a self defense weapon. Hint it was not because the .45 had more rounds.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Load it with Fiocchi "32 Wad Cutter" 100gr lead wadcutter ammo. The lead is hardened and resists deformation so the shoulder of the bullet remains sharp to cut a clean caliber size hole in tissues. This bullet also penetrates more than 12". Recoil is mild.

Also see the FBI publication HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS - www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

 

[JTQ]

I think you can use any gun and ammo choice you are comfortable with. I do agree with the above posters, a 9MM round would be more effective.

For clarity, I do question some of the information Skribs posted.

Skribs wrote,
Using the references I mentioned earlier, I'm looking at 99-117 lbf of energy vs. 518-570 lbf (not including +P or +P+).

shadow9 wrote,
518-570lbf NON-+P?! In 9x19?? Are you shooting it out of a carbine??

Skribs wrote,
My bad, that was the J column. 393-420 lbf.

For Skribs, in your first post, what references were "mentioned earlier"? I didn't see any.

Those still look like carbine numbers for 9MM. The typical standard pressure 9MM is usually in the mid 300 ft/lbs of energy, say from 320 - 370.

As one example, here are ballistic tables from Federal Premium http://www.federalpremium.com/products/compare/handgun_compare.aspx

You can check ballistic tables from just about any manufacturer. They are all pretty similar.

 

[David E]

Obviously, for self defense, shot placement matters, and so a poorly placed .44 Magnum shot could, in theory, be much less effective than a skillfully placed .22 short round.

Why is it the guy armed with the .44/.45 can't shoot, but the steely-eyed, unflappable guy armed with a .22 Short always can place his shots with surgical precision?

I'm thinking a .44 magnum to the ankle/knee/pelvis/wrist/elbow/shoulder would be more immediately effective than a center chest hit with a .22 short.

 

[Skribs]

JTQ, that was forums and wikipedia Like I hinted at, these are not perfect sources. However, they are quick and easy to search and at least give a cursory view of what you're looking at, even if it's not always 100% accurate.

David E, that's why I always try to assume laboratory conditions (i.e. that if it is not a factor being compared, it is assumed to be equal). This is why I hate answers like "the gun you have with you" or "shot placement is king", etc. etc.

 

[loose noose]

All I can say is surgical precision goes out the door in a real life armed confrontation. You do go back to your training, however precision goes out the door. From personal experience.

 

[David E]

All I can say is surgical precision goes out the door in a real life armed confrontation. You do go back to your training, however precision goes out the door. From personal experience.

Ed Zackery!

 

[Hometeached1]

Why is it the guy armed with the .44/.45 can't shoot, but the steely-eyed, unflappable guy armed with a .22 Short always can place his shots with surgical precision?

I'm thinking a .44 magnum to the ankle/knee/pelvis/wrist/elbow/shoulder would be more immediately effective than a center chest hit with a .22 short.

I have wondered about that too. I guess it's just hyperbole.

 

[hartcreek]

I own a couple 32 SW. I hand load for it and my handloads put it on par with my 32 ACPs which I also handload for. If you are going to go the full route and handload and practice with it then yes it will work for a CCW and handloading will make it less anemic.

A more powerfull round is a poor substitute for dilligent practice.

 

[Skribs]

I will say there are some truths to the whole caliber-affecting-shot-placement.

Smaller caliber usually means faster/easier follow-up shots, so more shots placed in X amount of time. Yes, I realize that proper training can make that negligible, but for your average person who's taken a safety class and practices the basics at the range (or less), the lighter the recoil, the more shots placed in X time. Also, smaller caliber means more bullets to place with the same size cylinder/magazine.

Another factor is the limit at which the shooter can handle recoil. I'm sure most people on here can shoot .40 S&W just as well as 9mm, but for some people, whether it's due to the flinch or just the round is too hot, they shoot 9mm just fine and the accuracy with the .40 S&W just drops.

However, neither of these really play into the question of "does .32 S&W long have enough stopping power?" It more plays into comparisons between calibers, and then much of these talking points is moot in assuming laboratory conditions.

 

[jimbo555]

If your style is old revolvers, just find one in 38spl. Not to hard to do.

 

[torqem]

this "minimum of 16" of penetration"

is for people who shoot guys in the posterior, as they "charge" backwards at them, on their hands and knees! If I slash you "only" 2" deep, virtually anywhere on your body, with a 2" knife, you are going to THINK' "shallow wound" all right! I don't want more than 9" of penetration and I'd settle for "only"7", before I'd take a rd that penetrates 16". If it penetrates 16" of flesh, I guarantee you that it's not very shocking, destructive, or controlable for rapidfire. in a compact, lw, ccw pistol.

Most of the time, just the sight of your gun is enough. Misses change a lot of minds, as do poor hits, even with the "feeble" .22lr.

9" of penetration handles piercinng anyone's arm (from the side) as well as one lung. When you shoot them from the front, you only pierce one lung, guys, regardless of what handgun load you use. It is completely unrealistic for you to expect one hit, with a handgun, to suffice, unless the muzzle is pressed up against the base of his skull.

So hitting the hand/arm, from the front, with his arms up in the Weaver Stance, etc, and "only" tearing the hell out of it (with an adequately destructive load, that "only" pierces 9" of tissue, is fine with me. Cause I'll be putting 3 more into him within the next 1/2 second.

 

[orpington]

Reloading is not a problem for me, so any options with regards to reloading are definitely viable.

I think just having the firearm on me and the 'fear' that it would provide, if ever needed, is the most important thing. I think that with CCW, the fact that it is there, is the most important thing. In the case where a CCW should ever have to be potentially utilized, I would think only in a small number of situations are shots actually fired.

However, it is comforting to know that the round, if loaded properly, is not completely useless. I remember firing an old S & W Lemonsqueezer at the side of a barn with pine siding years ago. After firing, I remember picking them out of the pine board, having only penetrated half the depth of the bullet, or less, into the pine board.

 

[Hokkmike]

WC145
Look at the currently available .32 Long ammunition and compare the projectiles and ballistics with the offerings in popular contemporary self defense ammo in todays standard calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP, .38SPL, .357MAG) and see how it stacks up. I think it will be obvious where the .32 Long falls short.

All true, but the real question is the sufficiency of the .32 not where it ranks in a continuum.

 

[Skribs]

Orpington, bringing up reloading is not about whether or not you can reload, but about whether or not you think using handloads could be used against you in a jury. I do not personally believe it would matter, but there are many on this board who believe that if you use handloads in self defense, a prosecutor could bring charges citing those as proof of your intent to inflict harm on others.

Hokkmike, without a baseline there is no way to make a comparison. Where it falls on the continuum is important if there is a line on the continuum that says "below here, FMJ recommended over JHP" and another line that says "below here, you're just making noise."

 

[hartcreek]

If I have to pull my ccw I indend to kill the person that I am pulling my weapon on if I have to not do harm my reloads just give me an advantage over factory ammo. Dead is still dead.

 

[mbt2001]

Uhhhh

Why not just get a detective special/model 10 or something of that persuasion if you want something vintage? Something IS better than nothing, but for what, a $100-200 more you can get something in 38.

 

[TomJones]

Why not look at what happens in the real world? go to www.handloads.com and click on the Stopping Power link at the top of the page. It will tell you what you need to know about which round to choose for self defense. You will probably notice after researching many options that .357 and 45 ACP are the two top dogs when it comes to stopping power. I would not personally use a 32 for a carry gun. But that is your decision to make alone. I alternate between a Ruger sp101 .357 and a Springfield XDs 45 ACP for my carry guns. JMTCW.

 

[Skribs]

If I have to pull my ccw I indend to kill the person that I am pulling my weapon on if I have to not do harm my reloads just give me an advantage over factory ammo. Dead is still dead.

I believe the term you are looking for is "shoot to stop." You shoot until the attack stops. Whether or not the attacker dies is irrelevant. If he dies an hour later on the way to the hospital, it might not have stopped him in time to stab/shoot/beat you to a bloody pulp. On the other hand, if he runs, begs, or faints as a result of your defensive gun use, you've stopped the attack.

I don't put stock in any "KO" calculators. I look at what penetration that ammo can expect and then the expanded surface area.