I have a very basic philosophy...

[Carbonator]

GySgt -

I hope we never have to "draw" to settle this. Not sayin your outgunnin me or nuthin I need something smaller though. When they fit 22 .45's in the same package as a PM9 with mags, I'm all there baby!

Besides, we'd prolly be on the same side, right? right????

 

[N3rday]

I like ur thinking!

the only trouble is .38 spl, which has a hard time penetrating the skull.

.38 spls are the bare minimum for a self defense gun. 9mm for autoloaders, .223 for rifles.

p.s. .223 really kinda blows, we need some 7.62 assault rifles in the NATO countries (H&K, maybe?)

 

[XLMiguel]

In my research (such as it is), there are two basic events that stop a fight:

1. A significant central nevrous system (CNS) hit (i.e. brain or spinal cord)

2. Shock due to blood loss.

In the case of a CNS hit, the effects are more or less immediate and profound. DRT, or at least really incapacitated.

For #2., it is intuitively obvious that you bleed faster through big holes than small ones. Does this scenario favor the notion of over-penetration (shot through and through, e.g. with hardball) vs. a wide internal wound channel via HP, but no exit? I'll leave it to those who've BTDT, but speculatively, I suspect one bleeds out faster with more holes.

There's also the aspect of structural damage, e.g. busting out a hip or other supporting structue, which may put them on the ground, but not necessarily out of the fight. This supports the adage that anyone worth shooting, is worth shooting [at least] twice, or, keep shooting till they quit twitching. And usually, when there's major structural damage, there's usually a lot of blood loss.

Bottom line, though, remains the same as itever was: first and foremost, shot placement is paramount. A .22 in the eye works better than a .454 nick in the ear. Use enough gun - that is what you shoot well with confidence.

Thus endeth the sermon.

 

[BluesBear]

the only trouble is .38 spl, which has a hard time penetrating the skull.

.38 spls are the bare minimum for a self defense gun. 9mm for autoloaders, .223 for rifles.

p.s. .223 really kinda blows, we need some 7.62 assault rifles in the NATO countries (H&K, maybe?)

#1 What makes you think .38 special has a hard time penetrating the skull?
Do you have anything more than a handfull of anecdotal evidence to support this? Sure there are a few obscure cases where a small caliber bullet has struck at an oblique angle and travelling between scalp and skull sometimes exiting and sometimes not. But you'll find that these are few and far between as to be inconsequential.

#2 There are dozens of Markarov & PPK owners on this board that will disput you on this.

#3 you say .223 is bare minimum but yet you say it blows?
Now, no matter what you may think of the MBR of the US Armed Forces (and several other nations as well) do you think it is chambered for a "cartridge that blows"?

There have been some successful selective fire 7.62 "assault rifles" but the 7.62 is better suited to a semi-auto MBR. Medium cartridges, such as the 7.62x39 and 5.56mm are better suited to select fire weapons. But wait you say the 5.56 "blows".

HK???? Oh yeah that "no bolt hold open & charging handle on the left side up by the muzzle idea" has REALLY caught on. :banghead:

 

[SAWBONES]

George Hill said:
"To me, the whole point is to make as large of a hole as you can, that goes as deep as you can make it. How you make that hole, be it bullet or drill bit... it doesn't matter."

AND, to make that hole in a place that counts.

That's it, in a nutshell.

 

[Majic]

Those who think the .22lr doesn't penetrate a skull plate should have visited slaughter houses in the past. Cattle were killed with a single shot to the head from .22lr handguns.
There is also a saying that a mid bore JHP may expand, but a big bore bullet will never shrink. A large caliber JHP that doesn't expand is already close to the size of an expanded mid Bore JHP.
I agree that multiple hits with expanding mid bore JHPs will make large wounds, provided there is time for the multiple shots to be made. I'll take the sure big bore bullet.