concealed carry shotgun

[ctdonath]

They're legal in NY. Sheriff was startled when I asked him to sign the NFA Form 4 for it. County Clerk was startled when typing the caliber on my permit.
(I got a Mossberg 590 AOW: same idea, 14" barrel.)

they have to pay the $200 tax stamp

Or a flat $1000 annual fee for a Title II SOT FFL license.

Ouch!

Slugs, yes. Birdshot, no.

Aguila mini-shells?

I've long wondered why nobody makes a shortened receiver designed specifically for those.

 

[Defensory]

Even with light loads, it looks like it would be real unpleasant to shoot. And if you have to go with loads that are too light, you're defeating the purpose of having a shotgun for self-defense.

Plus the meager three round capacity doesn't impress me. If I'm attacked my multiple perps, I want more than three rounds.

You might be able to purchase it legally in some areas, but I'd be willing to bet there's not a state in the country that would allow you to legally carry it concealed. I'm skeptical that any states would even permit you to open carry it on your person or in your vehicle, due to the fact that the barrel and overall length are well under what every state law that I know of allows.

Not to mention that CCW laws apply only to handguns. They don't authorize you to carry this type of weapon concealed.

You can legally own it in some states, but you can't legally carry it anywhere. So you basically have a weapon that only holds three rounds, kicks like a mule, and is illegal to possess, carry or transport just about anywhere except your home.

If I were going to invest in a stockless shotgun, I'd go with the Mossberg 500 J.I.C. Mariner. It can legally be open carried on your person or in your vehicle in most states, due to the 18 1/2 inch barrel and 28 3/4" overall length, which meet legal minimums in most areas.

Plus it gives you 5+1 capacity. Six rounds is much better than three in a SHTF situation involving multiple perps. The longer barrel and extra weight will also noticeably reduce felt recoil, as well as improve accuracy and range:

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=28&section=products

 

[wdlsguy]

You might be able to purchase it legally in some areas

Actually, AOWs of this sort (smoothbore pistols) are legal in most states.

but I'd be willing to bet there's not a state in the country that would allow you to legally carry it concealed.

You might be surprised. I know Texas would.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by wdlsguy
Actually, AOWs of this sort (smoothbore pistols) are legal in most states.

Legal to own, as long as you keep them in your home. NOT legal to carry on your person or in your car in most areas.

You might be surprised. I know Texas would.

Surprise me.

Please direct us to an official Texas state government or official Texas law enforcement website that documents that you can carry it concealed in Texas.

Please forgive me if I don't hold by breath waiting.

 

[wdlsguy]

Please direct us to an official Texas state government or official Texas law enforcement website that documents that you can carry it concealed in Texas.

Texas Penal Code § 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
In this chapter:
...
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
...
http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.010.00.000046.00.htm#46.01.00

The Serbu Super Shorty is a handgun under Texas law.
Texas allows handguns to be carried with a Concealed Handgun License.
QED.

 

[serrano]

 

[ctdonath]

Even with light loads, it looks like it would be real unpleasant to shoot.

I have something comparable with a 14" barrel. Light loads are pleasant.

there's not a state in the country that would allow you to legally carry it concealed.
...
Surprise me.

New York does. Actually had such a thing on my concealed carry permit. County Clerk did a double-take at the 12ga caliber, but still put it on there. Under NY law, it's just another pistol.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by ctdonath
I have something comparable with a 14" barrel. Light loads are pleasant.

A 14 inch barrel isn't comparable with the 6.5 inch barrel on the Serbu Super Shorty (SSS). Please saw your barrel off to a mere 6.5 inches, THEN tell us how "pleasant" light loads are.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by wdlsguy
The Serbu Super Shorty is a handgun under Texas law.
Texas allows handguns to be carried with a Concealed Handgun License.
QED.

Your above post is just one more reason I don't take legal advice from internet "legal experts".

If you read a little further in the source YOU provided:

(10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a
barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel
length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or
rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26
inches.

So we find that under Texas law, the Serbu Super Shorty (SSS) is actually classified as a "Short-barrel firearm", NOT a handgun. So it's a safe bet that the Texas CCW law does NOT authorize you to carry it.

If you can't show me a specific Texas firearms law or section of the Texas CCW law that authorizes you to carry the SSS concealed, then I'll have to assume it is NOT legal to do so.

 

[ctdonath]

I think if you dig deeper in to law and into the SSS manufacture, you'll find that
- a "shotgun" by definition has a shoulder stock
- that which the SSS is made from never was a "shotgun" by law.

And yes, I was lawfully permitted to conceal such a thing under NY law, which is comparable to the TX law you are nitpicking. Don't be so quick to criticize those who have been there / done that.

 

[RyanM]

In PA, the Serbu is a "firearm." PA's definition of a firearm is very unusual. Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length under 15", any rifle with a barrel length under 16", any shotgun with a barrel length under 18", and any pistol, revolver, rifle, or shotgun with an overall length under 26". And PA's CCW is a concealed firearm license. You are explicitly permitted to carry a concealed sawed-off shotgun with a CCW, under PA state law.

On cost, you shouldn't underestimate how much work goes into Serbus, as well. It's not "just" cutting the barrel down, they've also got to cut the mag tube, and weld on a new magazine endcap, and barrel thingie.

Everything's refinished, too, and the folding foregrip is made by Serbu. The foregrip has to be quite robust to take half the recoil of a 12 gauge. Definitely not a basement job.

Get a regular gunsmith to make you a Serbu, and I can't see you saving much money.

Shotgun - $300.
Chopping the barrel and tube, welding on a new cap, probably around $150
Folding foregrip, another $100 easily.
Refinishing the gun, $100 or so.

 

[wdlsguy]

So we find that under Texas law, the Serbu Super Shorty (SSS) is actually classified as a "Short-barrel firearm", NOT a handgun. So it's a safe bet that the Texas CCW law does NOT authorize you to carry it.

Okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume the Serbu Super Shorty is a "short-barrel firearm":

Texas Penal Code § 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
In this chapter:
...
(10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
...

If we look search for "short-barrel firearm" in Chapter 46, we see that it is considered a "prohibited weapon":

Texas Penal Code § 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
...
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
...
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.
...

So possession of a "short-barrel firearm" is legal as long as your federal paperwork is in order.

If we search for "prohibited weapon" in Chapter 46, we discover a reference in § 46.03, meaning we can't carry a "short-barrel firearm" in:
- schools
- polling places
- courts
- racetracks
- the secured area of an airport
- within 1000 feet of an execution.

And that's it. You don't even need a CHL.

If we change our mind and call the Serbu Super Shorty a "handgun" again, we need to add a few more off-limits locations, found in § 46.035:
- bars
- high school, collegiate, or professional sporting events or interscholastic events
- correctional facilities

Bet you didn't know that short-barrel firearms have fewer restrictions than handguns in Texas, did you?.

 

[Defensory]

Since ctdonath apparently missed this the first time I posted it, here it is again:

(10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a
barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel
length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or
rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26
inches.

So the SSS is CLEARLY defined as a "Short-barrel firearm" under Texas law, NOT a handgun, which is also clearly defined in the same statute.

ANYBODY interested in buying one of these would be VERY WISE to check with their county sheriff and state attorney general's office, in regard to all laws directly and indirectly pertaining to weapons like the SSS.

 

[wdlsguy]

So the SSS is CLEARLY defined as a "Short-barrel firearm" under Texas law, NOT a handgun, which is also clearly defined in the same statute.

See post #37. You can carry a short-barrel firearm without a CHL in Texas, and short-barrel firearms have fewer off-limits locations than handguns do.

Just for the record, I believe a Super Shorty should be treated as a handgun in Texas, not a short-barrel firearm...

 

[Packman]

And I'm pretty sure you could carry it in FL with a CCW permit.

FL issues a permit to carry a concealed weapon. not a concealed handgun permit.

Defensory, that Texas law says "any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle, if....."

The SSS wasn't made "from" a shotgun, it was made just as it is.

 

[Sir Aardvark]

This would be about the closest thing you could get to a "One Shot Stop" concealable weapon (well... almost nearly concealable).

Who cares if it only holds 3 rounds - that's all you'll need in most cases anyways.

 

[Defensory]

wdlsguy:

Don't get too cocky and proud of yourself yet.

Okay, for the sake of argument, let's assume the Serbu Super Shorty is a "short-barrel firearm":

There's nothing to "assume". I've already established via your own source, that the SSS is a "Short-barrel firearm". There's nothing to debate on that particular point.

Texas Penal Code § 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
In this chapter:
...
(10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
...
If we look search for "short-barrel firearm" in Chapter 46, we see that it is considered a "prohibited weapon":

Texas Penal Code § 46.05. PROHIBITED WEAPONS.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs, or sells:
...
(3) a short-barrel firearm;
...
(c) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor's possession was pursuant to registration pursuant to the National Firearms Act, as amended.
...

You're merely presenting OUT OF CONTEXT quotes, as evidenced by all the little periods in your quotes where you're skipping important text. You don't determine the law by piecing together little snippets out of context.

So possession of a "short-barrel firearm" is legal as long as your federal paperwork is in order.

Possession as defined by this law means OWN. I never denied that it can be OWNED in Texas, in fact I already stated that it is legal to POSSESS one in your home in a number of states. OWNERSHIP is not the same as CONCEALED CARRY on your person or in your vehicle, which you have not yet established to be legal in Texas.

If we search for "prohibited weapon" in Chapter 46, we discover a reference in § 46.03, meaning we can't carry a "short-barrel firearm" in:
- schools
- polling places
- courts
- racetracks
- the secured area of an airport
- within 1000 feet of an execution.

And that's it. You don't even need a CHL.

If we change our mind and call the Serbu Super Shorty a "handgun" again, we need to add a few more off-limits locations, found in § 46.035:
- bars
- high school, collegiate, or professional sporting events or interscholastic events
- correctional facilities

You're dangerously naive if you believe it is legal in Texas for the public to carry Short-barrel firearms in bars, scholastic and professional sporting events, and correctional facilities---especially without any type of permit. In fact, I seriously doubt there is even any sort of permit available that would allow the public to carry in those particular places.

That right there should prove to anyone with common sense that wdlsguy is clearly misinterpreting the law. Is there anybody here who honestly believes that you can just walk in a bar, sporting event or correctional facility in Texas with a Short-barrel firearm---in this case a SHOTGUN?!

Bet you didn't know that short-barrel firearms have fewer restrictions than handguns in Texas, did you?.

Your out of context quotes and gross misinterpretations of the law fail to prove your statement.

Note to any THR members considering buying an SSS---be sure to contact your county sheriff's dept. and state attorney general's office before purchasing and attempting to carry an SSS on your person or in your car, concealed or not.

 

[wdlsguy]

I've already established via your own source, that the SSS is a "Short-barrel firearm". There's nothing to debate on that particular point.

Let's look at the definition of "short-barrel firearm" in the Texas Penal Code:

Texas Penal Code § 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
In this chapter:
...
(10) "Short-barrel firearm" means a rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or a shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18 inches, or any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle if, as altered, it has an overall length of less than 26 inches.
...

It is far from clear to me that a Super Shorty is a "short-barrel firearm", because it isn't a shotgun, and never was a shotgun. The feds consider it a smoothbore pistol. I see no reason why Texas would see things differently.

If Texas considers it a handgun, it can be carried with a CHL. Agree or disagree?

If Texas considers it a short-barrel firearm, it can be carried without a CHL, with fewer off-limits locations than a handgun. Agree or disagree?

You're merely presenting OUT OF CONTEXT quotes, as evidenced by all the little periods in your quotes where you're skipping important text.

The ellipses indicate I'm skipping irrelevant text. Go back and read the entire section since you don't believe me.

I never denied that it can be OWNED in Texas

We're making progress then.

OWNERSHIP is not the same as CONCEALED CARRY on your person or in your vehicle, which you have not yet established to be legal in Texas.

It isn't up to me to establish that something is legal in Texas, it's up to you to establish that something is illegal in Texas. If you study Chapter 46 of the Texas Penal Code, you will discover it is not unlawful to carry a "short-barrel firearm" (except in certain locations) without a CHL.

You're dangerously naive if you believe it is legal in Texas for the public to carry Short-barrel firearms in bars, scholastic and professional sporting events, and correctional facilities---especially without any type of permit. In fact, I seriously doubt there is even any sort of permit available that would allow the public to carry in those particular places.

I challenge you to show me where the Texas Penal Code outlaws carrying a short-barrel firearm in a bar, for example. As a practical matter, it would need to stay concealed, but no law would be broken.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by wdlsguy:
It is far from clear to me that a Super Shorty is a "short-barrel firearm", because it isn't a shotgun, and never was a shotgun.

From the official Serbu website:

"The SUPER-SHORTY is based on a Mossberg Maverick (also available on Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 at additional cost) 12-gauge shotgun which came from the factory with a pistol grip. Because of this, the SUPER-SHORTY is considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and can be transferred with a $5 stamp! The gun holds two 2-3/4" or 3" shells in the magazine, plus one in the chamber. The 16.5" overall length, 6.5" barrel and spring-locked foregrip, which pivots out of the way when not in use, make for a very compact package. As far as we know, this is the shortest 12-gauge pump shotgun available. All parts for the SUPER-SHORTY are made in-house on our own CNC machinery using materials ideally suited to the task. All welds are done by the TIG process, and the manganese phosphate finish is MIL-spec. The SUPER-SHORTY is currently being used by various law enforcement agencies and military units worldwide. If you like the idea of concealed carry with a 12-gauge, or like a lot of "bang" in a small package, or just want the most compact breaching weapon available, then this is the gun for you. You won't find a better made AOW pump shotgun than the SUPER-SHORTY!"

http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

 

[Deer Hunter]

Psh, forget the Serbu.

This is what real men carry.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Deer Hunter:
Psh, forget the Serbu.

Agreed!

In a SHTF situation, I want a lot more than three round capacity from a weapon that's going to kick like a mule.

 

[wdlsguy]

The SUPER-SHORTY is based on a Mossberg Maverick (also available on Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 at additional cost) 12-gauge shotgun which came from the factory with a pistol grip.

Serbu is being very sloppy with their terminology here. While a pistol grip only (PGO) "shotgun" is a firearm,

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

18 USC 921(a)(3)

a PGO "shotgun" isn't a shotgun.

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

18 USC 921(a)(5)

A PGO "shotgun" isn't a shotgun because it isn't intended to be fired from the shoulder. If a PGO "shotgun" was a shotgun, a Super Shorty would be a short-barreled shotgun, not an AOW.

Because of this, the SUPER-SHORTY is considered an AOW (Any Other Weapon) and can be transferred with a $5 stamp!

And the feds consider it an AOW because it's a pistol having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell:

(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

26 USC 5845(e)

 

[Defensory]

"(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term [AOW] shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

wdlsguy just keeps shooting himself in the foot with his own sources!

He has claimed from the beginning that the Serbu is classified as a handgun, thus can be legally carried concealed under Texas law.

However, we see from his own source, an AOW is NOT classified as a true handgun. All true handguns have rifling in their barrels, whether semi-auto or revolver. The Shorty is an AOW, which is why it requires a federal transfer stamp. Regular handguns require no such federal approval, fees and transfer stamps to be purchased by the consumer.

The Shorty is NOT a true handgun, and wdlsguy has presented NO evidence whatsoever that it can be legally carried--concealed or openly--in the state of Texas.

So I repeat--before anybody purchases the Shorty, please consult in writing with your county sheriff's department and state attorney general's office, as to the legality of carrying it concealed OR open in your county and state.

And if anybody believes that you can legally carry the Shorty concealed in bars in Texas, like wdlsguy has claimed, I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge dirt cheap!

 

[wdlsguy]

wdlsguy just keeps shooting himself in the foot with his own sources!

Defensory, I don't think I've ever done this with anyone here before, but I'm calling you out as a troll.

He has claimed from the beginning that the Serbu is classified as a handgun, thus can be legally carried concealed under Texas law.

You have two definitions in the Texas Penal Code to choose from: handgun or short-barrel firearm. Either choice allows legal carry in Texas.

However, we see from his own source, an AOW is NOT classified as a true handgun.

The Super Shorty is an AOW because it is "a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell". The last time I checked, pistols were considered handguns.

All true handguns have rifling in their barrels, whether semi-auto or revolver.

All Title I handguns have rifling in their barrels. Do you know what happens when a handgun with rifling goes above .50 caliber?

The Shorty is an AOW, which is why it requires a federal transfer stamp.

The Super Shorty is an AOW because it is a pistol with a smooth bore.

The Shorty is NOT a true handgun

Since when is a pistol not a true handgun?

and wdlsguy has presented NO evidence whatsoever that it can be legally carried--concealed or openly--in the state of Texas.

Well, you obviously haven't been paying attention then. You also need to keep in mind that the federal definition of handgun doesn't necessarily equate to a given state's definition of handgun. For example, certain rifles and shotguns (according to the feds) are considered handguns (according to the State of Michigan).

And if anybody believes that you can legally carry the Shorty concealed in bars in Texas, like wdlsguy has claimed, I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge dirt cheap!

Actually, you are the one making that claim, since you apparently believe the Super Shorty is a "short-barrel firearm" in Texas. I would argue that it's a "handgun" in Texas, which would make it illegal to carry in a bar with a CHL.

 

[clemsonu0219]

There is a reason its a Concealed HANDGUN Permit...not a concealed weapon permit...you cannot carry anything other than a handgun concealed...I don't know whether or not this shotgun can be classified as a handgun.