Concealed Handgun Permit Holders Kill 7 Police, 44 Private Citizens Over Two-Years

[TexasRifleman]

Notice also that many of the incidents listed were people that should not have qualified for the permit due to previous crimes.

This whole thing is dishonest, as usual.

They had to cover 2 whole years just to get some info, and still had to include dishonest statistics to pump up the numbers.

They also had to include suicides by CCW's to pump up the numbers.

What a joke.

Also note that they use a lot of incidents where there has been no trial yet. At least one of these incidents is being claimed as self defense. The shooter was indicted but has not had a trial yet. So, without a conviction how do you claim it's an unjustified shooting?


And at the end of the day, a reality check is the real issue.

It's unrealistic to believe that 100% of CCWs will be crime free. This report really just confirms what we say all along, that you are safer around a CCW than any other segment of society.

Frankly the report just gives us more ammo. They are beat and they know it.

 

[ByAnyMeans]

I think one of the main problems with the study is what they have admitted themselves. They are unable to get concrete data on permit holders so they "analyzed" news reports. This are the same media folks that can't get anything else gun related correct yet are going to have hard facts on permit holders even though they are only able to access the same info the VPC can get.

 

[mbt2001]

I hate to sound crass, but in a country of 300,000,000 people the numbers they are throwing out are 0.00000001 of the population.

I think that is about on par with the amount of people that are killed by grizzly bears per year...

 

[Sgt.Sausage]

The only good statistic I'm looking for to counter this is answered by this question: How many innocent citizens were killed and injured by a LEO with a gun.

I'm quite sure that those who are paid and trained to use a gun, those who are so-called "professionals", those who most citizens don't even think twice when they see an officer of the law with a gun ... I'm positive that their numbers are worse than just us mere citizens with a CCW. I just don't know where to find actual numbers.

Hell, the way it's going they kill more folks than that a year with just a tazer. No gun involved.

 

[TexasRifleman]

he only good statistic I'm looking for to counter this is answered by this question: How many innocent citizens were killed and injured by a LEO with a gun.

There is no doubt that number is much higher, but it's not good to use it for our argument.

Cops are by definition of their jobs in situations that "normal" people are not so they (the anti's) will throw that back in your face if you go that way, claiming it's not relevant.

Our argument should be that people with a CCW are the safest people in the US to be around, and that is clearly the case even in VPC's own study.

They even went to all the work of proving our point for us

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

I know this runs well counter to the argument that having the gun in the home "increases your risk of suicide" but there are no hard numbers either way.

Not to hijack the thread, but you make a good point; and that point begs the question as to whether the gun was brought into the home for suicidal purposes to begin with.

I'll study the incidents in the VPC's "study" and report back.

Woody

 

[ArmedBear]

Further, if you look at the data they're using:
One nutjob killed three cops
One nut job killed ten citizens
One nut job killed thirteen citizens

Three incidents in two years account for nearly HALF of all of the "data."

Also, the VPC does not ask the question: did the permit contribute to their ability to commit the crimes?

A permit does not enable someone to carry a concealed weapon. I knew of several otherwise-law-abiding citizens over the years in California, who carried without permits. None were EVER caught.

Unless you are searched by a police officer, a permit does not impact your ability to carry a concealed weapon AT ALL.

So, even if these nut jobs were eligible for permits (apparently they weren't but "slipped through the cracks), were they EVER found by the police with concealed firearms, but not arrested or charged because they had permits? If not, the permits did not make their crimes any easier.

 

[Deanimator]

Cops are by definition of their jobs in situations that "normal" people are not so they (the anti's) will throw that back in your face if you go that way, claiming it's not relevant.

Crime is where IT finds YOU.

It's not like I can be like Adrian Monk's brother (John Turturro) and lock myself in my home for years. If I go to the grocery store, or the bank, or to lunch at MacDonalds and somebody makes himself a threat to my life, I can deal with that threat or not. VPC's choice is "not". What do they care? If the POLICE have no duty to "protect" me as an individual or liability when they fail to, VPC sure doesn't. They're like Cicciolina, the Italian porn star who in the '80s, told everybody that AIDS was a "hoax". They can say what they want, no matter how destructive, with no consequences.

You can't make them stop lying, but they can't make you believe them or stop telling other people that they're liars.

 

[neverjeg]

Does anyone remember when the truth mattered?

 

[ACBMWM3]

I hate stats.
You start with solid facts then distort them so much.
For Example:
Would you rather,
eat dirt
or
watch your family die.

Most people choose eat dirt so that means 100% of the population wants to eat dirt. We don't need to mention what the other choice is. Now you see my problem with stats

 

[ArmedBear]

Seriously, though, if the permits did not FACILITATE the crimes, it doesn't matter.

Say the permit holders were caught with their concealed guns, but allowed to go on their ways because of the permits, and then went and killed innocent people THAT DAY, then the permits would have facilitated the crimes.

Otherwise, they don't matter. There's NO causal relationship. They happened to have permits, along with many other things that thousands or millions of people in the US happen to have. (Florida ALONE has almost a half-million permit holders.)

I'll bet thousands of people wearing leather belts committed murder last year around the world, too. See what I'm saying?

Of course, some vegan activist group could use this to try to ban leather belts, using the same logic...

 

[ilbob]

I wonder how many cops committed violent crimes during the same period of time?

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I believe the police shooting statistic is an important one to find. I would only include police shootings where judgment was clearly faulty or the officer was committing a crime. I expect the number will be higher.

 

[ArmedBear]

When you're talking about 1 in 10 million or even longer odds, you can easily find a few examples of just about anything in an enormous country over a long period of time.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

. . . Propter Hoc

Well, what I really want to know is how many of those shooters were Catholic?

I think a case can be made that Catholics are dangerous. I mean, think, wasn't most of the original Mob made up of Catholics?

As usual, the VPC has left out an important piece of the data.

I want the shooter's religion included in these stats.

You know, there could be a whole class of hate crime that's gone undiscovered all these years.


In other news, did you guys know that Charles Manson was a "Private Citizen?"

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Yup! None of these killers needed a permit to carry to commit these crimes!

Woody

 

[divemedic]

According to the "Officer Down Memorial," there were 6 police officers killed accidentally by other police officers in 2008 and 2009. Nearly 1,000 people per year die while in police custody. I could not find a list of people shot accidentally by cops. Maybe someone else can.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimated that there were about 861,000 police officers in the United States in 2006. (the latest numbers I could find)

In Florida alone, there are 591,000 active concealed weapons permits. North Carolina reports 263,000 permit holders. Safe to say, there are many more permit holders in the US than there are police officers, yet the number of shootings involving cops is nearly equal, making a permit holder much less likely to be involved in an illegal shooting than a police officer.

In fact, in Los Angeles, a study found that 43% of officers shot in the line of duty were shot by other officers.

 

[ArmedBear]

Cops shouldn't have guns. Obviously, the guns only endanger other cops, since self-defense with a firearm is impossible. ABC said so.

 

[cauberallies]

Two of these killings happened in my town in early April. An US Marine veteran who was recently discharged for medical reasons after 3 tours in Iraq, with a CCW permit robbed a Subway restaraunt, killing an 18 year old employee, shooting another employee in the pelvic area, before taking the money and fleeing to a nearby apartment complex parking lot, where he shot and killed a man who just happened to step outside to get his mail. He was apprehended minutes afterwards.

It is a tragic, terrible situation any way you look at it, but these killings represent exactly what this VPC study is trying to convey, but I'm sure this incident, and incidents like this account for the minority of those numbers.


This isn't directly related to the topic, but I drove past this Subway 15-20 minutes before it happened. I had just left Dunhams after buying ammunition, and was on my way to go shooting, with all my guns with me. I was considering stopping to eat there, but I decided to get something at the Sheetz store about 1/4 mile up the road, since thats where I was meeting up with the friends who were coming with me. I always wonder if it would have turned out differently if I would have stopped there instead. The perp came in the back door, and fired shots in the back of the restaurant before coming out to the front, so someone would have at least had the chance to get out to their car to retrieve a weapon and stop the man.

 

[mljdeckard]

You notice, it doesn't say that those shootings besides the police were unjustified homicides. (I am giving the dead cops the benefit of the doubt, but it doesn't say that ANY of these killings were legitimate self-defense.) I am not omnicient, but I have never heard of any homicides in Utah by permit holders that weren't legitimate self-defense.

How many innocent people were killed by police in the same time period? Not cop bashing, but this is VERY selective data indeed.

 

[divemedic]

Hmmm... Navy Seals, Rangers or any other special forces group might make me feel safer. Or just marines in general or maybe Airborne troops. Yep. I can think of safer groups than regular card carrying CCW types.

I guess that is why most military units do not issue ammo until it is needed, you know, because they are so safe and all.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I wonder if they are counting people with CCW permits or just people carrying concealed weapons? I don't trust a word these liberal types say about anything.

They don't know the answer to that either. They are simply repeating what they found in news reports since most states keep the actual data hidden from public view.

This whole report is nothing but a string of crappy media articles spouting this or that.

 

[happygeek]

Hmmm... Navy Seals, Rangers or any other special forces group might make me feel safer. Or just marines in general or maybe Airborne troops. Yep. I can think of safer groups than regular card carrying CCW types.

I've personally seen a couple alarming weapons mis-handling incidents from Airborne personnel. I'm pretty sure none of the four individuals I'm talking about have a CCP, at least I sure hope they don't. Now the ones I know who do have a CCP, I trust completely. On that note, maybe the VPC should do a study of weapons mishandling incidents by Army personnel, comparing those with CCPs vs those without.

 

[sig228]

Lets debunk the stats

3 of the 7 LEO's were killed by Richard Poplawski, the worthless nutjob who was terrorizing his mother. That definitely hurts the stats.

The Florida killing was of a non-uniformed Border Patrol Agent who was reportedly in a road rage incident with an elderly dialysis patient. Old man shot him dead when BP circled back around a parking lot where they confronted each other. Old guy had no clue who or what he was.

From ABC News:

Wonder was on his way to a dialysis appointment when he and Pettit, who also was driving, exchanged obscene gestures, Segarra said. Wonder pulled into the post office parking lot, and Pettit, who was traveling with his 12-year-old daughter, followed. The men began arguing and Wonder pulled a handgun from his waistband and shot Pettit, according to police records.

Segarra said it's unclear if Pettit had business at the post office or if he was pursuing Wonder in an official law enforcement capacity. Pettit was on duty.

My question: On duty with his daughter in the car?

That's 4. What about the other 3?

 

[Jim K]

The VPC is in a panic. Remember, that whether that bill passes or not it is our bill and they are playing defense. If it fails, we are no worse off. If it passes, we are better off. For the last 45 years, since 1963, we have been on the defensive, fighting an seemingly endless barage of anti-gun legislation and proposals ranging from the moderate, even reasonable, to insane proposals for death camps, warrantless searches, and summary executions of gun owners. It feels good to be on the offense, even though this does not seem like a propitious time.

Jim