Concealed means concealed

[MikeNice]

9mmare, that first quoted part was a little more direct and honestly not aimed at you. It was meant for the poster that said because he knows one store owner he can "assume"
what he wants about others. That is a logical fallacy. It is a way of twisting the matter to fit what makes that person comfortable.

I understand that for you it is a strong belief. I do not question that.

As for the second sentence. I don't smoke if it is posted no smoking. I try to respect the owner's wishes. I've had a bar owner tell me he didn't care that the state had banned smoking in establishments like his. He encouraged people to smoke all they wanted inside. So, I smoked in his bar. The owner didn't object and every one there was aware of the consequences of being there. No one was coerced or harmed, so I had no problem. (I'm much more of a social libertarian than my responses in this thread would suggest.)

I feel that we should focus more on the government over reach than the owners. We should be pushing out elected officials to do away with idiot laws that limit what a person can do with their property and life. I also think we need to back off on some of the restrictions of guns.

However, if the property owner posts a sign saying not to do something, I try my hardest to refrain. If I can't refrain I usually leave. I give them the respect they deserve and enjoy (or protect) my self elsewhere.

 

[M-Cameron]

now i have an interesting question.........

now i think we all would agree that if you were going into someones private residence, and they did not want guns in the house........we would honor their wishes.........right?

so what would you do if you had to go into a small mom-n-pop shop, possibly run out of their garage, or a part of their house, and they had a "no guns allowed" sign........would you honor their wishes?

 

[Sam1911]

now i have an interesting question.........

now i think we all would agree that if you were going into someones private residence, and they did not want guns in the house........we would honor their wishes.........right?

so what would you do if you had to go into a small mom-n-pop shop, possibly run out of their garage, or a part of their house, and they had a "no guns allowed" sign........would you honor their wishes?

In both instances I would not open carry and would, beyond that, scrupulously follow the law.

 

[x1wildone]

If the sign says as OP stated no concealed carry weapons.
Then just open carry.

 

[Rail Driver]

What about your right to eat and provide food for your children? Would that mean that you have a right steal food from "publicly owned" places?

I think you're a bit confused. Eating and feeding your family are VERY different than right to carry. You don't have to get a permit and a background check to go buy a loaf of bread. Firearms and their carry and possession are regulated (however illegally) and also (in most places) the signs prohibiting carry do not carry the force of law. Where they do not, I feel no compunctions about carrying. Where the signs do hold force of law, I'll either pass the place by, or if I must visit, I'll leave the pistol locked in the car.

As far as your stealing scenario, the answer is no, nothing gives anyone the right to steal something that belongs to another, whether the place is publicly owned or not. Theft is NOT a constitutional right, Keeping and bearing arms is.

 

[FNMatt]

As far as the police example is concerned, a store owner could just as easily ask a police officer to disarm before entering just like any other customer. As far as warrants are concerned, not really the same case. The police do not need any permissions from the owner to execute a warrant, so the wish of the owner for the officers to be unarmed are just as worthless as their wish for the officer not to enter the building.

Some of you have mentioned that CC is not harming the business owner, and since they don't know, its not really a problem. However, its up to the business owner to decide what "harm" really is on their own property, no matter how absurd their reasoning. Additionally, carrying a CC does have very real implications for the business owner. They may prefer that, in the case of a robbery, no one is able to resist. While this victimizes the people of the store, the owner may believe that this will hopefully reduce the violence of the robbery. While this may seem idiotic to many, the business owner may feel this is the easiest way to prevent bloodshed, and if they are insured, who cares about the stolen till? If you ignored the business owner's wishes and concealed a firearm, then you suddenly have a reason to use your weapon, you are directly affecting that owner's right to manage their property. Even if their reason to not allow you to carry was completely absurd, say the owner thought that guns attracted evil spirits or pixies, its not our place to dismiss the owner's concerns on their own property. Again, the option to never enter the store exists in the first place...

 

[MachIVshooter]

so what would you do if you had to go into a small mom-n-pop shop, possibly run out of their garage, or a part of their house, and they had a "no guns allowed" sign........would you honor their wishes?

As the proprietor of a personal property based business that is open to the public, I touched on this in an earlier post (#43). Basically, any part of the property or residence that is dedicated to the business and intended to be accessible to the public during business hours has to abide by a different set of rules than the remainder of the property and residence. For me, that means that during business hours, I may have to tolerate things that I wouldn't ordinarily allow on my property, but those things are only permitted in the shop, office, one restroom and the parking area. My customers do not have carte blanche to go anywhere they want in my home and treat it like a waiting area, because is not. They also can't drive their car into my front yard, because it is separate from the business parking area.

 

[shooter429]

Owen, why do you set up straw men. You and I both know your analogy has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Stealing is a crime. And while eating is essential to life, stealing food from a store is not a fundamental right. However, being able to shop while maintaining one's inalienable rights is necessary. In this society, we value individual rights. Corporate interests can and must be superceeded by fundamental human rights. Laws don't go out the window because you enter a public facility. That is just silly. Troy

 

[Owen Sparks]

We seem to be going in circles here.

The Bill of Rights is a list of rights that THE GOVERNMENT is supposed to have no power to control. Thomas Jefferson said: Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others". In other words, in a free society you should be able to do as you please right up to the point that it infringes upon the natural rights of someone else to do the same, and bringing an unwanted item onto someone else’s property against their stated wishes is an infringement, even if they don’t know about it, even if you think it is harmless.

I work event security from time to time and we don’t let people bring pistols in even though it is perfectly legal. Knives are allowed but the event organizers don’t want bullets flying in a crowded convention center for any reason. Part of my job is to enforce that and if people don't want to come in without their pistol, then they just can't come in.

We give up our natural rights all the time in exchange for things we want. You give up your liberty or a large portion of it for 8 hours a day in exchange for a paycheck. We give up the rights to some of our property whenever we buy something and sometimes we have to surrender some of our personal safety in exchange for being allowed on someone else’s property. That is how a free society works, through a series of mutually agreeable voluntary exchanges. To suggest that some third party (the government) should FORCE me to accommodate armed people against my wishes is a form of coercion.

 

[leadaddict]

I work event security from time to time and we don’t let people bring pistols in even though it is perfectly legal. Knives are allowed but the event organizers don’t want bullets flying in a crowded convention center for any reason. Part of my job is to enforce that and if people don't want to come in without their pistol, then they just can't come in.

I don't think anyone is arguing with their right to do this. I'm certainly not. If you take the time to enforce your rule then go for it. It's legal and fine for you to do so. But simply placing a sign doesn't ethically obligate me to follow it. (or legally in my state)

 

[Sam1911]

To suggest that some third party (the government) should FORCE me to accommodate armed people against my wishes is a form of coercion.

It doesn't. You may ask for compliance with a wish. You might get it. You may enforce compliance with a wish if you are willing to put the money and effort into doing so. And if you are willing to take the "P.R." hit attendant to your decision to put your friends/visitors/customers through your searches/frisks.

What you probably shouldn't do is ask for compliance and then believe that you will get it, just for the asking. Not from the law-abiding, whom you (should) have no reason to fear. Certainly not from the law-breaker who's intentions are less noble.

We seem to be going in circles here.

That is the usual result of this thread, which we have every two months or so on average.

 

[leadaddict]

That is the usual result of this thread, which we have every two months or so on average.

Perhaps, but not all of us pay close enough attention to catch very many of them.

 

[Owen Sparks]

But simply placing a sign doesn't ethically obligate me to follow it.

It does if it is a coindition of entering the property.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I work event security from time to time and we don’t let people bring pistols in even though it is perfectly legal. Knives are allowed but the event organizers don’t want bullets flying in a crowded convention center for any reason. Part of my job is to enforce that and if people don't want to come in without their pistol, then they just can't come in.

That's a whole 'nother ball-o-wax. None of us are talking about forcing our way through or circumventing active enforcement of a disarmament policy. Obviously, there's no ethics issue there, as active enforcement/screening negates the possibility of being able to enter with a firearm undetected.
As Sam 1911 said, if you're willing to enforce your rule, then you can expect compliance (though, as he also noted, you may alienate your customers).

But, once again, as I and so many others have pointed out, posting a rule (especially one without the law behind it) doesn't mean you'll get compliance, and it doesn't mean that people ignoring it are morally compromised.

 

[Sam1911]

But simply placing a sign doesn't ethically obligate me to follow it.

It does if it is a coindition of entering the property.

Let's rephrase: Simply placing a sign doesn't physically obligate me -- or the robber entering in front of me or the rapist who came in behind me or the psychopath who's sitting in the parking lot trying to decide if "today's the day" -- to follow it.

It may -- in some cases -- legally obligate me to follow it...or it may not. But that's about the most conclusive thing you can say.

 

[gym]

We always end up like this, maybe we shoud have a "your going to do what you each see fit attitude" and be done with it. I don't condone taking a gun anyware my state or Federal law restricts it, other than that it becomes a matter of choice. If you want to deal with the choices then you do just that, either obey the proprieter or ignore it and if caught deal with it. I hear Bin Ladin had a sign "no guns on Seals past this point". on his gate.

 

[Sam1911]

We always end up like this, maybe we shoud have a "your going to do what you each see fit attitude" and be done with it.

That's pretty much how it goes. I gave up on worrying about other people's morals or ethics a long time ago. As long as folks understand the law and have some idea of social consequences they may face for their actions, that's about the best we can hope for.

 

[Lord Teapot]

i think it's perfectly ok for me to ensure my personal safety in an area where less informed people think i should not ensure my personal safety.

 

[jahwarrior]

i carry everywhere i can carry legally. in PA, signs don't carry any legal weight behind them, so i routinely ignore them when i see them.

 

[gym]

They just feel they have that right, so we deal with it in our own way.

 

[rstull85]

I don't get why everybody gets so worked up about refusing to go anywhere that they cant carry. I have my CCW but I rarely carry. I am going to school so I cant carry there. I don't know what my employers stance on concealed carry is because I just started there, but I work for a bobcat rental company as a service technician so trying to pack a handgun would be a real pain. If my wife and I go out to eat I cant carry because I cant carry in to any place that serves alcohol. Am I going to quit going to applebees because I cant carry in there? No, I wont even take it to leave in the glove box because I might decide to have a beer with my meal.
As far as going into a friends home. Most of my friends are either pro 2A or carry themselves so no problem there. My wife's friends on the other hand are uncomfortable around guns. Sure you can say that concealed is concealed and if they see your CCW and get mad then you can leave and just look at it as they are not your friend anymore, but is it really worth it. Sure you can brag to your buddies that you told those scared uneducated people what was what and you wont be seeing them any more but your going to be sleeping on the couch for a while. I ask people that come into my home to keep there weapons concealed. If they decide that they cant do that then I have the right to ask them to put it in the car or leave.
If you don't want to go someplace that wont allow you to carry thats fine but don't get on hear and go off on a rant about it (like I just did). We all just need to use common sense and common courtesy, throwing a fit about not being able to carry someplace isn't going to help our cause. Sorry for the rant and if I offended anyone just putting my .02 out there.

 

[burley]

Where I live I see no ccw allowed signs at the lgs. The shop where I bought my ccw, ccw holster and took my state ccw test has one. There is also a No CCW sign at a range I sometimes visit. They even have a No Loaded Magazines sign and they charge by the hour. Granted, it's probably an insurance requirement. They don't say anything when I bring out 6 loaded AK magazines and get ready to shoot. Still, it is an interesting ethical delima.

 

[gym]

Like I said it's your business we keep telling some of you but it dosn't get through to you. It's a free country exercise your own judgement.
I can tell you that I had several occasions when If i didn't have my gun, I wouldn't be enjoying this forum. So you carry on with what you feel is the right thing to do.

 

[9MMare]

It does if it is a coindition of entering the property.

Only if you can enforce it. And you cannot without violating the (privacy) rights of the carrier.

If you want to search everyone that enters your business, good luck. And you'll stop lots more than people carrying guns! lol Just wait til you see what else they're carrying.

I follow the law. THe law in my state says that I can comply with that business owner's wishes (sign)...or not. That business owner can do nothing unless a) I screw up or b) he invades my right to privacy.

If neither of those things happens....he or she is none the wiser and not harmed by my actions. Not only that...he got my business...he benefits.

(Altho if given a choice, I choose businesses that are not posted)

 

[wrs840]

Suzanna Gratia Hupp solved my moral dilemma when she said "the biggest mistake I ever made..."