Condition 3: Guess who? Jeff Cooper..What!!

[Joe the Redneck]

I was never a "true believer" in Cooper either. Made a lot of good points, but I am Applegate man myself, but why get into that?

Personally, I have never like "safties", to me, they are just accidents waiting to happen.

If I feel that I will not need the weapon, it is unloaded.

If I feel I will need it, it it loaded, chambered, "safty" disengaged.

There are 3 rules you have have to make peace with:

Guns are dangerouse, they wouldn't be much good if they weren't.

If you need a gun, you are going to need it in a hurry.

The most frightning sound is a "click" when you wanted a "bang."

You have to look at your situation and find a compromise that works for you and live with it.
If all else fails:

Keep you finger off the trigger until you sights are on the target. Some smart guy said that, what was his name? Jeff Something?

Joe

 

[Gun Slinger]

The biggest flaw with Condition 3 carry is the assumption that you will have both hands available to bring your handgun to a state of readiness when you need it.


G/S

 

[Geronimo45]

I always hear that you keep your rifle in condition 3 due to the lack of internal safeties on many long guns. A handgun is considered more likely to be dropped/knocked off tables, and thus has various protections against AD in case you drop your gun (I seem to recall an incident of a soldier in Iraq who dropped his Condition 1 M-4/16/whatever twenty feet or so, and it went off. Don't recall if safety was on). Since it is possible that you will, in fact, knock over your HD carbine/shotgun at some point or other, it's good to keep it in condition 3 to avoid an AD in case it decides to go off when bowled over.

In an HD scenario, Cooper may be saying that you have more time to spare than in a on-the-street handgun scenario - and that the benefits of not having an AD when cleaning your closet outweigh the benefits of saving a half-second or so by not having to load the gun. You should have both hands fully functional in a HD situation where you have time to get to your rifle. You may not in a street-level SD scenario.

Joe, I'm an Applegate man too.

Jeff Cooper had many good and useful things to say. Not all his sayings are always useful for all people. His four rules are a great thing, for example... though some folks will take them to extremes. See 'muzzle sweep' nazis - some of which would say you were pointing a loaded gun at them if you had a sewer pipe pointed in their general direction.

what professional instruction have you had that makes you believe that condition three is an appropriate carry method for the civilian in self defense?

Seem to recall the Israelis doing it, with pretty good speed. To the best of my knowledge, it takes more practice, but it can be very fast with practice. Does not require you to change your grip if you fire one-handed (while with Condition 1, you move your thumb).

Condition one is for 1911s and other autos that have the option of safetying when cocked. Condition two is for DA autos and revolvers. Condition three is for SA revolvers and all autos. Perfectly safe, recommended by folks who had BTDT (Fairbairn). Fairbairn pinned the 1911 safeties down, IIRC. He didn't want them engaging at the wrong time, or folks to forget to disengage 'em. Brings up the whole question of why do you need a safety on a gun in a holster? You 1911'ers, doesn't your holster cover the trigger guard? And you probably disengage the safety in the drawstroke? So... the thumb safety is simply an added nuisance, from that perspective.

 

[Charles S]

Seem to recall the Israelis doing it, with pretty good speed.

The Israelis did teach a condition three reactionary draw in the past (this was largely due to the large variation of handguns in their defensive inventory). It is no longer their mode of carry. I don't believe any group teaches a condition three draw currently. The U.S. Military still teaches condition three as a primary mode of carry administratively, but also recommends changing to condition two (for the M9) if action is imminent.

I still believe the question is valid. I do not believe there is a single instructor who teaches condition three as the primary mode of carry for a civilian for self defense use. There is a reason for that!

In an HD scenario, Cooper may be saying that you have more time to spare than in a on-the-street handgun scenario - and that the benefits of not having an AD when cleaning your closet outweigh the benefits of saving a half-second or so by not having to load the gun. You should have both hands fully functional in a HD situation where you have time to get to your rifle.

I agree. Further an individual with training has retention options with a rifle that are not available with a handgun (e.g. a solid butt stroke).

You may not in a street-level SD scenario.

Ultimately that is exactly my point. An individual may not have both hands and/or may be quite pressed for time in a self defense scenario.

My other point regarding the training and instruction is that again (Mr. Cooper's quote)

"owning a gun no more makes you a gunfighter than owning a Stradivarius violin makes you a concert violinist."

Col. Cooper also stated:

“Having a gun and thinking you are armed is like having a piano and thinking you are a musician.”

Magyar states he preaches to us that condition three is a viable method of carry for concealment. I am simply inquiring about his expertise and training so I can honestly evaluate it.

When I make an assertion (since I am not an expert) I typically reference that assertion.

 

[easyg]

The biggest flaw with Condition 3 carry is the assumption that you will have both hands available to bring your handgun to a state of readiness when you need it.

Exactly.

I keep my pistols in condition 3 around the house, but never when I actually carry.
Then it's cocked-and-locked.

 

[scbair]

Operating the lever on a rifle is part of the shot-to-shot process, anyway. It's a gross motor skill, less prone to "slippage" than thumbing the hammer as the rifle is mounted.

Now, having grown up using an old single-barrel shotgun to obtain meat for the pot, I have no problem thumbing the hammer while shouldering the piece, and find it a lot quieter than racking the lever.

 

[Logan5]

It's not meant to be an apples to apples comparison between the 1911 and a lever action. Suppose your left arm has been amputated at the shoulder, and you're right handed; you'd probably carry your 1911 cocked & locked, and you wouldn't bother owning a lever gun. At any rate, it's where you want to be with the 1911.

Now, enter the levergun, remove the constraints. In condition 3, as long as you have a left arm, windowsill, rock, tree, etc, to support the forearm, when you compare the 1911 to the levergun the mechanism is letting you rack and fire with one hand, very quickly.

If the levergun were a 1911 in condition 3, you'd have your right hand on the grip, your second right hand on the slide, and your left hand would be dialing 911/using pepper spray/holding the flashlight.

It's not really a valid comparison, in my opinion.

 

[Geronimo45]

If the levergun were a 1911 in condition 3, you'd have your right hand on the grip, your second right hand on the slide, and your left hand would be dialing 911/using pepper spray/holding the flashlight.

You can rack the slide of a 1911 one-handed, without much trouble. Put the rear sight against the top of your belt and push down (with the gun). Or use the back of your shoe, or any similar surface.

 

[Charles S]

What no reply.

Megar we are all breathlessly awaiting your opinions.

 

[Erik]

It is a three part argument:

1. What is safe? ALL 1911s are safe to carry with a round chambered. SOME lever actions are safe to do so.

2. What is effecient? Pretty clear for the 1911. Not so clear for lever action rifles.

3. What is common practice? For pistols, chambered. For rifles? The debate is still out in some circles, but I believe it is fair to claim most begin their duty in condition 3.

Which is why Cooper stipulated what he did, if I may be so bold.