Confused Newcomer

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

johnatw

Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
14
I hope someone can help a newbee. I own a Savage 223 rifle that is a tack driver, and have only been reloading about a year.
I bought new Winchester Brass and Hornady 50 grain VMax bullets and BLC (2) powder. I loaded three test loads according to the Speer manual. The max load of 27.5 grains and a COL of 2.26 was the most accurate at 200 yards. Then I found that Hodgdon reccommended a max load of 28.0 grains and that tested even better. Then I found Varmit Magazine reccommeds a COL of 2.35 and that tested even better.
I went to Colorado on a prairie dog hunt and did fine firing over 500 rounds. When I started to reload my once fired brass I found cracks on the shoulders in three cases out of 500. So I'm thinking I've exceeded something here. I bought a Hornady reload book and they say max load of 26.7 grains of powder and a COL of 2.20. They rate the bullet at 4400 fps but their max load only throws the bullet at 3300 fps.
So do you guys think that a 28 grain load with a col of 2.35 is too hot, or could I have some defective new brass? If the load is too hot what is a good overall reccommndation?
Thanks for any imput.
John
 
That Hodgdon load uses a Speer bullet, not a Hornady. The bullets have different characteristics. I'd go with the load and COL for your exact bullet, likely from the Hornady book, especially when you are using max loads. It does appear you might be at or over max. You could even back off from that by a few tenths and still have all the speed you need.
 
Read the Hornady manual and it already tells you that you are over the max load. Im sure that you can find a load below the max that will work well in your gun. A P dog will not be able to tell the difference of a few hundred fps. Just remember the .223 Hornday Vmax bullet is a common size bullet that will fit other calibers. The 223 with BLC2 cant push it there. I can find some z speed rated tires to fit my Nissan Sentra, but it doesnt mean that my Sentra must go that fast, nor will I like what happens if it does.
 
The cracks you experienced were not caused by excessive pressure. They were caused by poor QC.

Each chamber is different. You should always work up a load.
 
3 splits in 500 sounds pretty normal for brand new winchester brass. i get more than that when loading brand new winchester .22-250 brass even when i load way under the max loads.
 
NeuseRvrRat said:
3 splits in 500 sounds pretty normal for brand new winchester brass. i get more than that when loading brand new winchester .22-250 brass even when i load way under the max loads.
Click to expand...
Just kinda sitting back reading here.

I don't reload yet, but it seems strange to me that brand new brass would be cracking on the first shot. Is this not a big deal? Or are you saying Winchester brass is lower quality than others?

Say you had to rate Federal, Norma, Remington, Starline, and Winchester... where does Winchester brass fall as far as quality, compared to the others?
 
Something is definitely wrong if you are getting cracked brass on the first time go. I am on my 12/13th loads with some of my brass and I haven't had a single crack yet. Not to say that it couldn't happen, its just very unlikely, and with Winchester brass none the less.
 
Ditto above. I have relaoded mixed brass, many times without cracks. Thousands. The biggest enemy my brass has is the size 9 clodhopper.
 
I get it with factory loads. Well used to when I used them.

Of what I have used I like Hornady, Rem, Fed, Win, & PMC in that order.
 
If your bolt opens easily and primers are not pierced or cratered badly, especially in hot conditions in a prairie dog town, then I would say the load was not the cause of split shoulders. That is not to say the load is okay, but shoulders are not where excess pressure shows up first. More likely a defect in annealing or case forming by Win., as others have said.
 
Personally I have never had problems with Winchester brass. I have had problems with another companies .22 LR brass being too soft, consistently, and Norma CF brass has a rep for being much softer in the head than Lapua CF brass. Any one can have a bad run of brass, or any thing else for that matter. It is when it is CONSISTENTLY bad that there is a problem.

Try writing Winchester a letter and see what they say about it. They might want a case or two to look at and see for themselves what happened, but I have never had a problem with Win brass or guns, so I can't say from personal experience what they will do, but what have you got to lose?
 
Say you had to rate Federal, Norma, Remington, Starline, and Winchester... where does Winchester brass fall as far as quality, compared to the others?
Click to expand...

Every single brand you mention has a similar failure rate. The reason shoulders crack is due to the case being too up in that area. Cases are supposed to be hard at the base, but soft on top. If you wanna make sure your cases last the same number of loadings, anneal the necks when new or when you harvest them from the range.
 
Update

First, thanks to all for the replies. Everyone was helpful.
I called Winchester and talked to one guy who said what you guys said but thought I should speak to their expert. I had to leave a voice mail and asked for a return contact either by phone or email. It has been nearly two weeks and no contact. I'm guessing two things, one Winchester is not familiar with the term "Customer Service" and or there is a problem with their brass.
My brother in law gave me a copy of Varmit Hunter Mag. yesterday and sure enough there was a article in it mentioning cracked Winchester cases.
I also emailed Hornady and asked them if I loaded their recommended powder load but stayed with the COL that matches my rifle (2.30) would that be OK. They answered back to back off of my original load and did not say anything about the COL. (I had bought their OAL gauge, did the measurement, then backed off .020 as Hornady said in their gauge directions.)
At this point If you guys agree, I plan to check out annealing then load the max Hornady load, and use my measured COL and do some test firing.
 
Shoulder Cracks

I found cracks on the shoulders in three cases out of 500.
Click to expand...
If you measured the head to datum line of the new brass, it may have a lot of Head Clearance. As it stretches to fill the chamber, it cracks. The brass may be a little on the hard side, causing this. I have seen shoulder cracks on new factory ammo. Not common, but happens. Annealing , not easy to do correctly. Soft shoulders can cause misfires.
 
Legion489 said:
Try writing Winchester a letter and see what they say about it. They might want a case or two to look at and see for themselves what happened, but I have never had a problem with Win brass or guns, so I can't say from personal experience what they will do, but what have you got to lose?
Click to expand...
Even though they didn't call you back I wouldn't give up on this. I suggest writing then an email or snail-mail. That usually gets more attention than a phone call for some reason. They just might send you some free brass to make up for your inconvenience.

I use mostly Remington brass these days. although a lot or reloaders bash Remington for one reason or another I have always gotten good results from Remington brass. It produces accurate ammo for me and it lasts a good long time too...
 
I don't know if this is relevant to the cracked shoulders, but for accurate reloading with a bolt rifle, you need to be a little more scientific about determining o.a.l. for YOUR rifle, rather than just picking figures out of a load book!!
 
I let the rifle and bullet determine OAL. Assuming it fits in the magazine, I generally keep the bullet around a .1 (one tenth) of an inch off the lands. But the point is to use whatever works for you. I would avoid jamming into the lands as that would tend to raise pressure. Unlike revolver rounds, bottle neck cartridges will tend towards lower pressure with the bullet seated deeper (within reason, of course).
 
As stated, if the bolt is opening normal and ot stiff as in sticking, you are most likely not too hot. Also look at the case head and see if you are getting extractor imprints from the bolt face. this too is a sign of getting up there above the maximum. However, with new brass that has not yet been fire formed you are going to have some likely hood of chamber slop causing splits. It is for this reason I generally load new brass to a reasonable maximum point, say middle of the road, and then begin working up after the brass has had the chance to expand to the chamber.

GS
 
COL

Hentown, I bought and used a Hornady OAL gauge, set the bullet against the lands then backed off .020 per Honady instructions. Is there some better more accurate way to do this?
Gamestalker, the brass is in perfect condition except for the cracks, the bolt functions fine.
ArchAngelcd, I'll get busy and try to find a way to email or an address to write Winchester.
Thanks All
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

I
  • Locked
Anyone loading .223 with Hornady 55 FMJBT-cannelure and Viht 133 for AR?
Replies
2
Views
349
IMtheNRA
I
herkyguy
  • Locked
Help with CZ527
Replies
6
Views
797
herkyguy
herkyguy
Joe Texas
  • Locked
9mm Gold Dot and VCrown loads with CFE-P, VV3N37, and VV3N38
Replies
12
Views
1K
lordpaxman
L
J
  • Locked
C.O.L Questions
Replies
10
Views
982
Shortstop
S
S
  • Locked
UPDATE on DPMS 308 16" barrel
Replies
2
Views
398
blarby
B
Back
Top