confused on actions

[N3rday]

Ok, so I know what single action and double action are BUT

1. Some1 told me that the Beretta starts out with a long DA trigger pull on the first shot and that all subsequent shots have short, SA ish trigger pulls, which confuses the heck out of me. This is the opposite of sigs, czs, etc where the first shot is like 5 lb trigger pulls and the rest are 10 some odd lbs.

2. I have read that 1911s for some reason or another have the same short trigger pull for every shot. why?

3. If the Glock is DAO why does it have a trigger pull of 5.5, which is in the SA range if in not mistaken.

 

[BerettaNut92]

I don't have much in the way of mechanical genius but I'll try to help.

1. Since cycling the gun after the first shot cycles the slide, Sigs and Berettas, etc. leave themselves cocked. Not sure what you mean by Sigs, CZs have 5 lb first shot pulls and 10 lb subsequent pulls?

2. 1911s are kept cocked and locked...the hammer is back and the safety is on...they won't work if the hammer isn't back. Which makes them single action only as opposed to Berettas which are double action then transition to single action after the first shot. Hence the consistent pull.

3. I look at Glocks as single-action only. If I understand right, like 1911s, they won't work if the thing isn't cocked already. Dryfire a Glock. You can't pull the trigger a second time. The only thing is it has a 5.5# pull, but a longer take-up giving it a feel of a double action.

HTH and hopefully I didn't pass on bad info

 

[N3rday]

Hmm...

Well, according to what you said, then a beretta could be fired in double action mode by pulling the trigger while the pustol is uncocked? Im so confused...

 

[BerettaNut92]

Yes, that is how they are designed to be carried. Safety can be on or off. Some pistols like the Sigs are decock only.

 

[mete]

It has gotten complicated , HK USP has 9 variations! It is single action if you must cock the hammer with your thumb for the first shot like a 1911. Subsequent shots the hammer is cocked when the slide cycles....It is double action if you can cock the hammer with your thumb or cock it by pulling the trigger. Cocking withe thr trigger requires a longer heavier trigger pull. Subsequent shots are cocked by the cycling slide..... It is double action only if the hammer is cocked by the trigger for EACH round, that is after each shot the hammer falls to the uncocked position. The complication starts when you get designs that are "partially cocked " which reduces trigger pull. The double action pulls on autos , like revolvers can be as high as about 15 lbs. This means trying to hold a 2 lb gun steady while trying to pull 15 lbs.....Really good trigger pulls on DA autos are about 8 lbs like the Kahr . But with Partially cocked designs that can drop as low as about 3 1/2 lbs like the Glock target model. For combat a good DAO trigger is all you need , for target SA is the best.

 

[N3rday]

Wow

This all makes so much sense now.

Which brands (or individual models, whatever) operate like the 1911, with SA pulls every shot?

So if I loaded a beretta, put a round in the chamber and released the safety, even if the hammer was uncocked it would still fire, but with a heavier trigger pull, right?

 

[David4516]

Okay, let me try to make this simple (even though it isn't...):

Single Action:

Musted be cocked (hammer not down) to pull the trigger. If you try to pull the trigger with the hammer down, nothing will happen. All trigger pulls should feel the same.

Examples: 1911s, TT33 Tokarev, Luger, etc...

Double Action/Single Action:

Trigger is linked to hammer, so even if the hammer is down, pulling the trigger will cock the hammer and then release it (that is why it's called doube action, it does 2 things). You can pull the trigger on an empty chamber as many times as you want and the hammer will still do it's thing. The second and all following rounds are fired "single action" because the slide cocks the hammer for you, that is why trigger pull is lighter for these shots.

Examples: Berettas, Makarov, Walther, S&W, etc...


Double Action Only:

Just like a DA/SA, only the slide DOES NOT cock the gun for the second and all following rounds. The only way to cock the gun is to pull the trigger. Again, if you keep pulling the tigger with an empty chamber, the hammer will still do it's thing. All tigger pulls should feel the same.

Examples: Kel Tec, NAA, Kahr, etc...

I prefer DA/SA. It is harder to pull the trigger by mistake (at least for the first round) and I feel that makes them safer than single actions. I also like the lighter trigger pull for following shots, it makes it easyer to hit what you aim at... just my opinion though...

 

[SigP220ST_Guy]

Which brands (or individual models, whatever) operate like the 1911, with SA pulls every shot?

Browning Hi Power is a 9mm that uses similar manual of arms as a 1911. A few manufactures offer single action models. CZ has a single action version.

So if I loaded a beretta, put a round in the chamber and released the safety, even if the hammer was uncocked it would still fire, but with a heavier trigger pull, right?

Yes.

The way to operate my Sig is to have a fully loaded mag, one in the chamber and decocked(hammer down). The first pull will be heavy since it in now firing double action (cocking the hammer and dropping it). Every shot after that the hammer is cocked by the slide after rechambering a round and is now ready to fire in single action(much lighter pull).

Sig, and berretas are DA/SA in standard configuration.

Both offer DAO double action only models. The trigger pull is heavy every shot and hammer can not be put into cocked position.

You can cock the hammer and fire from SA only with these pistols if you like.

 

[Jim K]

The terms Single Action and Double Action refer to the action of the trigger.

A Single Action trigger performs only one action, that of firing the gun. The hammer (or striker) must be previously cocked either by hand or by the function of the gun after a previous shot. Trigger pull is normally short and easy.

A Double Action trigger cocks the hammer (1 action) and then releases it (1 action) to fire the gun. Trigger pull is normally long and hard. Most pistols having a DA trigger can also be cocked by hand to fire in the SA mode.

DA/SA normally applies to the trigger of a semi-automatic pistol which is designed to fire the first shot with a long DA pull, and subsequent shots with a short SA pull. The hammer is cocked by the functioning of the gun or may be cocked for the first shot by hand.

DAO (Double Action Only) applies to the trigger of a revolver or a semi-auto pistol which fires only through a long DA pull; the hammer or striker cannot be cocked although it may be partially cocked by the pistol's functioning.

SAO (Single Action Only) is not a common term, since SA usually implies SA only, but it sometimes seen.

Jim

 

[BluesBear]

Don't forget striker fired pistols are usually single action also.

Colt 1903 & 1908 pocket models, Remington 51, S&W Escort, Baby Browning, Ortgies ar classic examples of either enclosed hammer or striker fired pistols.
Raven, Jennings and HiPoint are some of the recently produced examples.

East to spot since there is no external hammer.
These guns can only be cocked by drawing back the slide. If you pull the single action trigger and there is no cartridge in the chamber, or a misfire, you'll have to rack the slide again to cock it.

This is the opposite of sigs, czs, etc where the first shot is like 5 lb trigger pulls and the rest are 10 some odd lbs.

I know of no properly functioning pistol which has a heavier trigger pull on subsequent shots.

 

[hd1.]

David4516 writes:

Double Action Only:

Just like a DA/SA, only the slide DOES NOT cock the gun for the second and all following rounds. The only way to cock the gun is to pull the trigger. Again, if you keep pulling the tigger with an empty chamber, the hammer will still do it's thing. All tigger pulls should feel the same.

Examples: Kel Tec, NAA, Kahr, etc...

Allow me to add to the confusion. The Kahr DAO does not fit your above description. (I am not qualified to comment on the other brands.)
The DAO Kahrs are "striker" fired; if the striker is released on an empty chamber (or on a dud round), pulling the trigger again will not cycle the striker. This DAO design does not have "second strike capability". This pistol relies on the slide being cycled to "set" the striker back on the cocking cam. If the slide fails to cycle after releasing the striker, you must manually cycle the slide to continue firing.

 

[pythium]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Double Action Only:

Just like a DA/SA, only the slide DOES NOT cock the gun for the second and all following rounds. The only way to cock the gun is to pull the trigger. Again, if you keep pulling the tigger with an empty chamber, the hammer will still do it's thing. All tigger pulls should feel the same.

Examples: Kel Tec, NAA, Kahr, etc...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allow me to add to the confusion. The Kahr DAO does not fit your above description. (I am not qualified to comment on the other brands.)
The DAO Kahrs are "striker" fired; if the striker is released on an empty chamber (or on a dud round), pulling the trigger again will not cycle the striker. This DAO design does not have "second strike capability". This pistol relies on the slide being cycled to "set" the striker back on the cocking cam. If the slide fails to cycle after releasing the striker, you must manually cycle the slide to continue firing.
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It's not a big deal but the Kel Tec (not striker fired) doesn't have second strike capability while the striker fired Taurus PT111 (Milleniums) do have second strike capability.

 

[David4516]

Wow, I guess I was wrong about the Khar and KelTec. Thanks for setting me striat there.

Now, for a gun to be a true double action, doesn't it have to have second strike capability? If it does not have second strike capability, wouldn't that just make it a fancy single action?

 

[hd1.]

The Kahr is considered a DAO. It is not truly cocked by the slide. It's internals are merely positioned properly (by racking the slide) so it can be cocked by the trigger. The trigger is the only thing that can cock the striker and release the striker. The term DAO for the Kahr is correct. It is in no way a single action, due to the fact that it can never sit cocked and waiting to be released.

 

[BluesBear]

It's internals are merely positioned properly (by racking the slide) so it can be cocked by the trigger.

Similar to the Glock "Safe Action"

So, in essence, we have pistols with the following actions;

Single Action
Double Action
Double Action Only
Safe Action

A true DAO should have second strike capability.
A true Safe Action does not.

Remember that just because you can't see a hammer doesn't mean there isn't one.

 

[GigaBuist]

Clarification on CZ

I can't speak for all CZ's, but my CZ-75B does not work the way you describe.

It's primarily a single action weapon. Insert mag, rack slide, hammer is cocked and you're in SA mode.

If you want, you can lower the hammer and then your first pull will be Double Action. After the little explosion the slide comes back, cocks hammer, and puts another round into battery. Next shot is SA... unless you want to decock it again.

I like it.

Seeing that you've posted two "newbie"-ish questions today (which is perfectly fine) I'll head off the 3rd one already: The first auto-loader pistol you purchase should be a CZ-75 or variant of in either 9mm or .40.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

If you want, you can lower the hammer and then your first pull will be Double Action. After the little explosion the slide comes back, cocks hammer, and puts another round into battery. Next shot is SA... unless you want to decock it again.

What you describe is known as DA/SA. I have a CZ75 compact (with DA/SA) and never fire it with the DA trigger except when dry firing (I know I should practice it). The thing is, I have the capability of going with a double action first shoot, followed by subsequent single action shots. Or, "locked and loaded" I just have to disengage the safety and all shots are with the single action trigger. Or, if the gun is empty, I insert a loaded magazine and rack the slide. Now all shots are with the single action trigger (as you describe). HTH.

 

[oldman]

hd1.

Actually the Kahr's are cocked each time the slide is racked. The striker is now pre-tensioned and ready to fire when you pull the trigger. Upon pulling the trigger, the internal lever is raised to push up the blocking pin thereby releasing the striker to go forward and fire. Kahr's can't be DAO in the true sense since the short trigger travel prevents it from actually cocking and firing in one pull. Try it (unloaded of course). Rack the slide, pull the trigger it'll fire. Don't rack the slide, pull the trigger and nothing will happen. It's not cocked and the striker is not pre-tensioned. Glocks are the same way. Slide has to cock (or pre-tension) the striker.

 

[hd1.]

Oldman, I don't know which model Kahr you refer to in your post. I have not disassembled them all.

But the one I own, and have disassembled numerous times, is the MK9. My remarks apply this model. The Mk9's striker and striker-block are operated by two seperate off-set cam lobes which are mounted on the same shaft. Upon pulling the trigger, (providing the striker has been positioned by racking the slide), the first cam lobe draws back the striker, thus tensioning the striker spring. As the striker nears the point where it will slip over it's cam lobe, the second cam lobe moves the striker block out of the way. If the gun fires, the movement of the slide repositions the striker on the working side of the cocking cam (with very slight tension, certainly not enough to fire a round if released from that point.) If the gun mis-fires, the striker remains forward and out of reach of the striker cam.

There is no way that the gun can parked in a position with the striker spring tensioned to 'firing strength'. When parked, the striker spring has just enough tension to keep it from bouncing on it's cam lobe.

Next time you have a opportunity to take the slide off of an MK or a K, make note of two side-by-side cam lobes in the frame. Also, looking in the slide, push the striker-block out of the way. You will see that the striker has no real snap-action from it's resting position. The striker must be pulled further reward to tension the spring adequately for firing.

When you note the relationship between the two cam lobes to the striker and striker-block, it becomes clear that the striker must be further tensioned by the trigger in order to fire the gun.

 

[oldman]

hd1,

I may have stated incorrectly when I said pre-tensioned, it that some may take this to mean the striker (and striker spring) is fully tensioned. When you pull the slide fully to it's rearmost position and then let it run forward, the pistol is PARTIALLY cocked, i.e. the striker spring is partially tensioned. As you pull the trigger the cocking cam pulls the striker back from partially tensioned to a fully cocked position under full spring tension. So on and so on. This is from both my Kahr instruction manuals, so I am not completely wrong. Any racking of the slide will pre-tension (OK, Kahr says partially tensioned) the striker and striker spring. To me, the Kahr is still not a true DAO since you can't fire it with one trigger pull if the slide is NOT racked. BTW, I have 2 Kahr's (a K9 and K40) and I prefer them as my EDC's.

 

[hd1.]

Oldman, that's better! In your original post you stated:

Upon pulling the trigger, the internal lever is raised to push up the blocking pin thereby releasing the striker to go forward and fire.

That statement mis-led the reader believe that the "blocking pin" releases the striker. When, in fact, the cocking cam releases the striker. The 'blocking pin' is merely removed from the path of travel of the striker after the striker is drawn backward and is off of the "blocking pin".

On one hand, this is a small point, nit-picking some might say. On the other hand, it would be a shame to have a message board reader 'buy' or 'not buy' based on mis-information. I feel that the important issue to stress here is the fact that the striker spring tension is not sufficient to fire the chambered round while the striker is at rest against the 'blocking pin'. In other words, the dropping of the "blocking-pin" by itself alone, will not cause the gun to fire.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

It's not a big deal but the Kel Tec (not striker fired) doesn't have second strike capability while the striker fired Taurus PT111 (Milleniums) do have second strike capability.

Not so. The Kel-Tec P-11, which is similar to the PT111 in size and caliber, DOES have second-strike capability.

I carried a P-11 for several years, and shot it a lot. You can dry-fire repeatedly without moving the slide. It is a true DAO.

The smaller Kel-Tecs, like the P-32 and the new P-3AT, I think, must have the slide moved slightly to reset. That may be where the confuses arises.

 

[N3rday]

Thx u guyz!

And BTW, I know alot about guns, but actions have eluded me for the longest time.

Going to shoot my first Handguns this weekend!!! They have a Glock, Beretta 92 and Sig all in 9mm. Not sure what the Sig was, but they have a crapload of glocks for some reason.

Anyway, If I was to buy a gun it wouldn't be polymer. I like the ability to change grips and customize and stuff

P.S. Need grips that say "VERITAS" on one side and "AEQUITAS" on the other side, Boondock Saints style!

 

[BluesBear]

Glock advertises their pistols as being "Safe Action".

Since they fire essentially the same way as the Kahr and the Sigma it's a good enough name for me.