Conical vs balls

Status
Not open for further replies.
I built mine from a kit in 1975. It has a H&H 45 barrel 32 1-60 twist. Very
accurate. .454 round ball, .020 Teflon Patching, 90 gr Goex FF. Shot a 50XXX
at Friendship in 50 yd match in 1992.

FlintRifle.jpg
 
EljaySL said:
There's something to be said for momentum as a proxy for lethality rather than energy. (Which tends to lead one to the big and slow rounds instead of the small and zippy rounds). This definitely seems to be superior to energy in the "handgun" power ranges where the temporary cavity is just that - there's no real tissue damage except for the permanent cavity (aka "the big hole"). With more power (rifles) the temporary cavity expands so violently that tissues are destroyed and then maybe energy's the better proxy.

All that being said being hit by a big ol' chunk of lead is no fun, whatever its shape.
Click to expand...
grains 130
speed 2000
Bullet Diameter 0.44
KE 1154.401154
Momentum 1.154401154
momentum_1 11.54401154
Taylor 16.34285714

grains 280
speed 1200
Bullet Diameter 0.57
KE 895.1048951
Momentum 1.491841492
momentum_1 14.91841492
Taylor 27.36

and by contrast

grains 165
speed 2800
Bullet Diameter 0.308
KE 2871.794872
Momentum 2.051282051
momentum_1 20.51282051
Taylor 20.328

When you look at this comparison it is easy to see that it leaves many impressions. The .450 has Kinetic Energy of 1100 foot pounds. The .58 has sadly only 895 pounds of KE... The .308 wins in all categories except one obscure rating value.... The Taylor Knock Out value... developed by a Dark Continet Elephant Chaser figgered that big bullets do better... and please bear in mind my pet admonition that shot placement reigns supreme to any KE, Momentum, Taylor, or anyone elses theory, value or whatever, but I like Taylor because I like big bullets... :D
 
I may as well address the reply by HangFire. The cap&ball revolver being one of my specialties. Fixed a lot of them starting back in the mid eighties. I had a muzzleloading rifleshop and ended up getting known for being a good gunsmith with the cap&baller revolvers.
I'm not propping myself up with my experience. Experience doesn't mean I know anything really. I know some about the cap&baller revolvers so I'll try to share.
What I've seen with the cap&baller revolvers and their shooting cartridges is that every one with a good barrel could shoot good. Referring to the Remingtons but the Colts are the same. Good barrel...they can shoot good.
There was a time that I'd shoot on the farm with customers that had bought rifles....factory made or I made.....and every time I took one of the Pietta Remingtons out and shot one and let a customer shoot it they wanted to buy the gun. They shot that good. There would be an R&D or a Kirst Konverter in the guns and be firing 45 Colt cartridges loaded by me.
They could shoot those relatively heavy conicals well enough to kick up dust from one of those mounds of dirt a ground hog piles up when they clean their holes. Not a big pile of dirt really but after a little elevation experimenting the Remingtons could hit those mounds of dirt out to 300 and even 400 yards on a relatively consistant basis. Cool the way the lead slugs kicked that dry dirt up like a little artillary shell. The guns could shoot well at normal pistol ranges too naturally.
If one did shoot kirpy there was something wrong with the gun and it would usually go back to the supplier for an exchange. The barrels could be a problem at times.
Rifling grooves deeper on one side of the barrel compared to the other couldbe a problem. Looking at the barrel it can be seen with a keen eye but a lead slug bumped up in the barrel and measured is abig help checking things out.
A barrel with inconsistant rifling depth in the grooves can shoot good if....the bullet gets to the bottom of all the grooves and the muzzle is faced off flat with no crown. That lets the gases escape at the grooves simaltaneously and not first from the deep ones on one side of the barrel.
If the gas escapes first from some grooves then the gun shoots like a gun does when the crown is bad. The gases at the muzzle coming out the grooves not simaltaneously lets the gas on one side act like a jetison(spell) from the steering of a missle. Know what I mean?
Also....a tight spot in the barrel can swag the bullet smaller than it need be and shoot like a gun does with an undersized bullet. The threads at the breech end of the Remington type barrel can be screwed tight and cause a choke at that area and swag a lead bullet small fer the barrel.
Spots in a barrel that are "loose" fer the bullet can let gases past inconsistantly and make it seem like a person is shooting multiple different loads and bullet weights. Makes inconsistant groups.
Then there's the forcing cone that may not be cut concentric to the centerline of the bore or be too narrow or too wide. That affects the groups as well as the crown cut "not concentric" to the centerline of the bore.The Italian cap&ballers can be nortorious for that being mass produced and sold relatively cheap. The same rules don't apply to the cap&ballers as to the cartridges guns that come from Italy.
I'd always checkout my guns and if need be change out a barrel or use piloted reamers to re-do the crown or the forcing cone or both. If that didn't set things right I'd start looking at the interior of the barrel for tight or loose spots or kirps in the rifling.
One big thing to check with the cap&ballers is the alignment of the chambers to the bore. That can be off and cause poor shooting of ther gun. The alignment of the chambers to the bore being proper is really important.
Bullet size can affect the guns performance naturally. The lead bullets should be right at the groove diameter of the barrel grooves or better yet....the lead bullet shoots best when it's .001-.002 more in diameter than the barrels grooves.
The crowns to the muzzles on the cap&ballers aren't done really precise all the time and a crown off concentric with the bore even a little can make the gun shoot poorly. That's one thing to always check whether it's going to be a conical or ball shooter.
One thing.....about Uberti Remingtons...."they have slightly oversize barrel groove diameter for their percussion cylinders and especially for the conversion cylinders". Conversion cylinders having a chamber throat at close to .452 so a bullet larger can get swagged smaller.
"The Uberti Remingtons have grooves close to .460" and that can make a .452 size bullet small and shoot kirpy and inconsistant. If a lead bullet was to fit the Uberti barrel the throats of the chambers of conversion cylinder may need opened up to be what the barrel groove diameter is or .001-.002 more and have a bullet the right size for the barrel.
About the muzzleloader rifles with the 1-48 twist to the barrels....that's not a prime twist and it's always been with them that they may shoot balls well and not conicals or visa versa or shoot both the ball and the conical well or shoot nothing well. It seems to border on the paranormal but that's how it's been. No one I know has an answer to why some of the rifles ,all with the same rifling twist, shoot so different from one another.
That's one thing that gave muzzleloader rifles sidelocks a bad rap back in the day of sidelocks before the inline came along with a good twist to the rifling. Bad rifling twist (1-48)meant to be a compromise to be able shoot both ball and conical from the same rifling twist. Didn't work as well as people would like.
They seem to be able to shoot balls better more of the time though. I have an old(I'm old too) Italian Hawken I will go to the grave with even if I have hand made Hawkens to my name. It'll shoot both the balls and the conicals(any conical loaded straight that fits the barrel and is actually round will shoot even longer range from that gun) and shoot balls with precision at ball distances.
Mentioning the false muzzles brought up earlier.......I talked to a company once a long time ago and suggested the rifle barrel muzzles have an integral false muzzle reamed to support the conical bullets so to be loaded straight and true into the rifling. I explained they would load faster and load and shoot more accurately. They did it back in the day with false muzzles and funneled muzzles for loading conicals and even fer loading patched balls.
Thompson Center got the same idea and started doing it in modern times commercially first with their rifles and then the other rifle companies took up the cry and have the reamed cavity at the muzzles.
They don't make them(the reamed false muzzles) exactly proper but good enough. Helps with all those saboted loads but especially with the conical slugs to be loaded straight. I have a set of reamers for 50 and 54cal. that supposedly are the same TC uses made by the same reamer maker makes them fer TC.
There are plastic ball and conical guides that help hold the bullets straight at the muzzles. They are sold at most of the places muzzleloader stuff is sold. Like Dixie Gun Works and Mountain State Muzzleloade supply. I used to sell them in my shop with all the muzzleloader stuff.
I have a hand made original type muzzleloader Hawken with a 4140 steel 45-70 barrel with the 1-22 twist to the rifling. The barrel maker took the end of the barrel before he but the octagon to it and made me a bullet swag that goes in a vise. Lube the bullets....tap them thru the swag....the rifling is put to the bullet so they can be loaded straight and actually get them(fit the barrel perfectly) in the barrel. Loads easy and shoots as accurate as any 45-70 cartridge gun I have ever shot.....one reason.....the bullets load straight and true. I use the Lyman Govt. 500gr. bullet. That Hawken can put them in the bread basket WAY out there.
A person can take the end of their barrel (about 2.5 inches) and make a swag with a slight taper to the hole so the bullets can start into the swag and shoot the right size conicals real accurately. Tap the bullets thru base first and get the rifling lands engraved into the bullet that matches what's in the barrel.
Hope this ain't too long a read. Just tryin to be helpful with the little bit I know.
 
Last edited:
rifle said:
I may as well address the reply by HangFire. The cap&ball revolver being one of my specialties. Fixed a lot of them starting back in the mid eighties. I had a muzzleloading rifleshop and ended up getting known for being a good gunsmith with the cap&baller revolvers. I'm not propping myself up with my experience. Experience doesn't mean I know anything really. I know some about the cap&baller revolvers so I'll try to share.
What I've seen with the cap&baller revolvers and their shooting cartridges is that every one with a good barrel could shoot good. Referring to the Remingtons but the Colts are the same. Good barrel...they can shoot good.
There was a time that I'd shoot on the farm with customers that had bought rifles....factory made or I made.....and every time I took one of the Pietta Remingtons out and shot one and let a customer shoot it they wanted to buy the gun. They shot that good. There would be an R&D or a Kirst Konverter in the guns and be firing 45 Colt cartridges loaded by me.
They could shoot those relatively heavy conicals well enough to kick up dust from one of those mounds of dirt a ground hog piles up when they clean their holes. Not a big pile of dirt really but after a little elevation experimenting the Remingtons could hit those mounds of dirt out to 300 and even 400 yards on a relatively consistant basis. Cool the way the lead slugs kicked that dry dirt up like a little artillary shell. The guns could shoot well at normal pistol ranges too naturally.
If one did shoot kirpy there was something wrong with the gun and it would usually go back to the supplier for an exchange. The barrels could be a problem at times. Rifling grooves deeper on one side of the barrel compared to the other couldbe a problem. Looking at the barrel it can be seen with a keen eye but a lead slug bumped up in the barrel and measured is abig help checking things out. A barrel with inconsistant rifling depth in the grooves can shoot good if....the bullet gets to the bottom of all the grooves and the muzzle is faced off flat with no crown. That lets the gases escape at the grooves simaltaneously and not first from the deep ones on one side of the barrel. If the gas escapes first from some grooves then the gun shoots like a gun does when the crown is bad. The gases at the muzzle coming out the grooves not simaltaneously lets the gas on one side act like a jetison(spell) from the steering of a missle. Know what I mean?
Also....a tight spot in the barrel can swag the bullet smaller than it need be and shoot like a gun does with an undersized bullet. The threads at the breech end of the Remington type barrel can be screwed tight and cause a choke at that area and swag a lead bullet small fer the barrel.
Spots in a barrel that are "loose" fer the bullet can let gases past inconsistantly and make it seem like a person is shooting multiple different loads and bullet weights. Makes inconsistant groups.
Then there's the forcing cone that may not be cut concentric to the centerline of the bore or be too narrow or too wide. That affects the groups as well as the crown cut "not concentric" to the centerline of the bore.The Italian cap&ballers can be nortorious for that being mass produced and sold relatively cheap. The same rules don't apply to the cap&ballers as to the cartridges guns that come from Italy. I'd always checkout my guns and if need be change out a barrel or use piloted reamers to re-do the crown or the forcing cone or both. If that didn't set things right I'd start looking at the interior of the barrel for tight or loose spots or kirps in the rifling.
One big thing to check with the cap&ballers is the alignment of the chambers to the bore. That can be off and cause poor shooting of ther gun. The alignment of the chambers to the bore being proper is really important.
Bullet size can affect the guns performance naturally. The lead bullets should be right at the groove diameter of the barrel grooves or better yet....the lead bullet shoots best when it's .001-.002 more in diameter than the barrels grooves.
The crowns to the muzzles on the cap&ballers aren't done really precise all the time and a crown off concentric with the bore even a little can make the gun shoot poorly. That's one thing to always check whether it's going tobe a conicalor ball shooter.
One thing.....about Uberti Remingtons.....they have slightly oversize barrel groove diameter for their percussion cylinders and especially for the conversion cylinders. Conversion cylinders having a chamber throat at close to .452 so a bullet larger can get swagged smaller. "The Uberti Remingtons have grooves close to .460" and that can make a .452 size bullet small and shoot kirpy and inconsistant. If a lead bullet was to fit the Uberti barrel the throats of the chambers of conversion cylinder may need opened up to be what the barrel groove diameter is or .001-.002 more and have a bullet the right size for the barrel.
About the muzzleloader rifles with the 1-48 twist to the barrels....that's not a prime twist and it's always been with them that they may shoot balls well and not conicals or visa versa or shoot both the ball and the conical well or shoot nothing well. It seems to border on the paranormal but that's how it's been. No one I know has an answer to why some of the rifles ,all with the same rifling twist, shoot so different from one another.That's one thing that gave muzzleloader rifles sidelocks a bad rap back in the day of sidelocks before the inline came along with a good twist to the rifling. Bad rifling twist (1-48)meant to be a compromise to be able shoot both ball and conical from the same rifling twist. Didn't work as well as people would like. They seem to be able to shoot balls better more of the time though. I have an old(I'm old too) Italian Hawken I will go to the grave with even if I have hand made Hawkens to my name. It'll shoot both the balls and the conicals(any conical loaded straight that fits the barrel and is actually round will shoot even longer range from that gun) and shoot balls with precision at ball distances.
Mentioning the false muzzles brought up earlier.......I talked to a company once a long time ago and suggested the rifle barrel muzzles have an integral false muzzle reamed to support the conical bullets so to be loaded straight and true into the rifling. I explained they would load faster and load and shoot more accurately. They did it back in the day with false muzzles and funneled muzzles for loading conicals and even fer loading patched balls.
Thompson Center got the same idea and started doing it in modern times commercially first with their rifles and then the other rifle companies took up the cry and have the reamed cavity at the muzzles. They don'tmake them exactly proper but good enough. Helps with all those saboted loads but especially with the conical slugs to be loaded straight. I have a set of reamers for 50 and 54cal. that supposedly are the same TC uses made by the same reamer maker makes them fer TC.
I have a hand made original type muzzleloader Hawken with a 4140 steel 45-70 barrel with the 1-22 twist to the rifling. The barrel maker took the end of the barrel before he but the octagon to it and made me a bullet swag that goes in a vise. Lube the bullets....tap them thru the swag....the rifling is put to the bullet so they can be loaded straight and actually get them(fit the barrel perfectly) in the barrel. Loads easy and shoots as accurate as any 45-70 cartridge gun I have ever shot.....one reason.....the bullets load straight and true. I use the Lyman Govt. 500gr. bullet. That Hawken can put them in the bread basket WAY out there.
A person can take the end of their barrel (about 2.5 inches) and make a swag with a slight taper to the hole so the bullets can start into the swag and shoot the right size conicals real accurately. Tap the bullets thru base first and get the rifling lands engraved into the bullet that matches what's in the barrel.
Hope this ain't too long a read. Just tryin to be helpful with the little bit I know.
Click to expand...
I have an eye ache, paragraphs are our friends.
 
The only one I know of, energy. E=1/2M*V(2)

E=1/2 Mass*Velocity squared. A 250 grain bullet can be driven at a velocity that will always have considerably more energy than a 155gr RB. The sectional density of a bullet is always superior to a RB of the same diameter and gives greater penetration.

The ballistic coefficient is also much greater on a bullet than a RB and keeps a much larger portion of that energy at longer ranges.

A 255 gr bullet driven at 800 FPS delivers 355 ft/lbs of energy. A 155 gr RB at 800 FPS delivers 220 ft/lbs.

A .457 155gr RB squeezed into .456 chamber will always be the same
Click to expand...
I jive with that train of thought as the conicals allow for greater mass than a round ball. I'm far from a ML master but do believe the right muzzle velocity with either a ball or conical can lead to equal accuracy with proper bullet seating.
 
hang fire said:
TC Hawken has a 1:48 twist, not the best for ball, or conical, but does a fair job with either.

This is my old style stocked .45 TC with new style lock, but it has a 32" Orion Barrel, and it is my most accurate rocklock.

TCOrion2.jpg
Click to expand...
When I first shot my Hawkin the 1 in 48 twist was discussed with some other shooters.
They suggested trying various patch thicknesses when shooting balls.
I finally settled on a .013" cotton patch measured with a Dial Thickness Gauge and bought several yards at the time.
As for Conicals, I shoot a home cast 375 grain Maxi-Ball over 90 grs of FFG, my hunting load.
I installed a vernier tang site and globe front once and my accuracy improved greatly.
However, this sight combo had severe limitations in poor light situations encountered in the woods.
 
Hang Fire, sorry bout the format and my lack of expertise with the composition of my reply. I went back and broke it up some fer yas.
If you can get thru reading it let me know if any of the lil tid-bits of info may be a help to you with that pistol that won't shoot conicals from a conversion cylinder.
My satisfaction from two-finger typing a reply is in knowing I may have been a help to someone. A "thanks" is like a gem of goodness. :D
I have to admit......I like the pics of the Thompson Center Hawkens and especially the one with the 32 inch Orion barrel installed. That would be a great gun to hunt deer in PA. A good example of what can be done to specialize and sweeten an already nice gun. Is the barrel with the specialized ball barrelor the conical barrel?
I have a few too many muzzleloader rifles but always wanted a Thompson Center Hawken fer my collection. The rifle that re-started the muzzleloader rifle craze backin the seventies and prompted into creation by the movie "Jerimiah Johnson"with Robert Redford. Good movie.
I do have that Italian Hawken by Investarms that mimicks the TC Hawken. The Italian gun is a little rougher but just as good....almost. I did a poured pewter nose cap and entry thimble for the ramrod and blacked the brass on my rifle. Put some original type Hawken sights on it too. It's put the venison in the freezer more than a few times. Using the lead ball too. I hunted deer with the lead ball for many years. Does a good job and I'd use a self imposed limit of 100 yards fer my shots with the ball and a little further with the conicals. I shot most of the deer closer than 100 yards. :D I thunk it's about 500 ft/lbs at 100 yards with the ball and 1,000 ft/lbs with a heavier conical. They say 500 ft/lbs is an ethical energy at 100yards. Shoots clean thru them even with the balls in 50-54-58 cal.
What's kinda refreshing in this thread is that there doesn't seem to be any wild misinformation about balls versa conicals. Kinda like the Hombres here replying know their S--- (stuff) about muzzle loadin rifles and sich.
I gotta say again.....those pics of the TC rifles are "Purty fer sure".

I forgot to add....with the Uberti Remingtons and the .460 groove depth to the barrels .......using pure lead bullets that can bump up can help accuracy when the bullets are a lil undersize for the barrels shooting the 45 Colt cartridge conversions. A hollow based bullet design could help the pure lead bullets be more accurate too.
If I had one of those nice Uberti Remingtons ,I'd imagine, I'd be reaming the chambers of the percussion cylinder to better match the barrel grooves.
Of course...since the barrels of the guns are a little oversize to accomodate the blackpowder fouling from subsequent shots(had one of the importers tell me that one) one may just leave things as they are and not do anything to reduce the fouling much.
I'd use a chucking reamer(come in sizes in .0005 or .001 inch increments) in the collet of my mill and set it true to the center of the chambers with a centering tool I had Starett make me from,of all things, an edge finder.
I had a half inch size ground to a cone instead of cylindrical on one end so I can set the cone in the chamber and fiddle around with the X and Y axis till it lines up and I know I got the center. The barrels being at about .460 I'd make a .462 chambers and use a .472 ball mould to make the balls fer it.
I made a deal with Lee Precision and paid the $100 fer the tungsten ball used to final size the cavities in the mould holes and.....then pay the $100 set up fee and get a few moulds made. The moulds are regular price after the set up fee. I get at least four at a time double cavities. I use .472 balls in my Walker as do people that had me help with "tuning" theirs which naturally includes sizing the chambers and subsequently having to use the .472 balls in "reamed fer the barrel grooves" chambers. A ball .010 over the chamber size workes good.
Anywhooooo....I'm rambling again so before I hurt HangFire's eyes and give him eye ache I'll hit the road.:D
 
Rifle,I have a 1968 year walker that i bought used and it is set up the same way yours is. I am going to try and mod a mold to fit the chambers myself. I saw on another forum where someone used a round ball mold and drilled it out to use a plunger thing like a hollow base mini ball mold uses that is adjustable so he could make a round nose conical in any weight/length he wanted and that looked like it should work great and not be real hard to do.
 
Howdy Kituwa,
That sounds good....on the surface but.....a "reamed cylinder chambers" would dictate the use of the good ole round ball mould since heavier bullets raise pressures. Anywhooo....the Walker has a barrel rifling twist of 1-48 probably due to the higher velocity and pressures. The 1-48 may make if more difficult to get the gun to shoot well to any distance with conical type bullets.
Shooting normal pistol range and just breaking engine blocks and knocking down cement block walls out to 25 yards would probably give good enough accuracy from a WALKER. :D
Plenty good enough fer home defense in case a home invader waddles in lookin fer trouble. If you missed him the flame would just sear him to death. :neener:
Dixie Gun Works makes these economical scissors type ball moulds in any size a person wants. No sprue cutter to them and a person cuts the sprues with wire cutters. I used one fer a good long while and I just put the sprue cut part face up in the chambers and the plunger mashed it down good enough. Got plenty good accuracy with the balls from the scissors moulds.
My old Walkers been thru the mill a coupla times. Never cracked a cylinder even with all the powder I could get in it's reamed chambers but......I most always just shoot a measely 45gr. FFFg Goex with the ball and a lube pill under it on top the powder.
I've wacked ground hogs(wood chucks) that dig holes in the farm fields with the Walker out to 80 yards and beyond more than a few times and.....it kills em.:evil:
You know....makin one of those moulds you mentioned with the plubger thing adjustable would be just right fer makin heeled bullet balls for 45 Colt cartridges.
Anywhooooo.....if a Walker did shoot well enough with conical bullet balls the extra weight would be helpful if an Hombre just had to use it fer deer at closer range.
I had a machinist buddy that took one of my "Lee ball moulds"(aluminum) to work to sand blast the inside with some kinda real small grit sand since there was a knick in it. He over did it and sorta had an under cut up near the spru plate. The balls would stick in there casting so I drilled the top of the hole some to get rid of the lip. It made a nice "big spru" on the balls comin out of the mould. Actually turned it into a .380 heeled ball that would fit in a Navy Colt well. After the chambers sized the ball part when the spru part slipped in the chamber it made a bullet ball that was like a heeled bullet.
I bet you could drill one a them Lee moulds with the "tangent cut off" with the lil flat on the balls and put a small heel to a ball and keep the heeled ball "not too heavy and long" and get it to shoot from the 1-48 twist of a Walker.
You know...drill the top of the hole in the mould to make a flat on a nice short heel. Probably work good in an Army 1860 Colt well too if the spru made on top the ball made a heel the right size to slip in the chambers.
That would be easier than makin a plunger type adjustable thing on the bottom of the mould wouldn't it?
I have a few old broke down Walkers with loose arbors and all that and I plan to build them back proper and have a .472 ball mould with each and.....you may have given me an idea bout makin a heeled ball mould from the round ball moulds. You know.....a short heel to keep the weight and length down.Thanks!
Take care Bud.
 
Rifle, i think you are right,a round ball is ideal in a walker if you can get a mold the right size for it and it will take care of any pest that you come across.My idea of drilling a roundball mold out was not so much to make a conical is just a way to get the right size bullet without spending big bucks getting a custom mold made.Just a short skirt that would be the right dia. for the chambers and not long enough to affect it with the slow twist barrel. I too have settled on 45 grains of powder as being right though i use 777. I dont have a crono but suspect anything more just makes more noise and fire. I like the walker to hunt hogs with not so much because its more powerfull than my 1860 but because it is so easy for me to hit with free hand.I think its the weight and that long sight radius from the hammer across that long cylinder to the end of nine inches of barrel,lol.
Matt
 
Since we're talking about twists...

A 50 caliber with a .490 ball gets by with a 1 in 58" twist or slightly longer.
A 50 caliber with a bore sized conical of say .8" in length requires 1 in 38"
A 50 caliber with a bore sized conical of 1" requires a 1 in 30" to stabilize
and a 50 with a 1.25" conical requres about or at least 1 -24"

This is with a greenhill type formula and in my guns works out well. For example my volunteer shoots a 457121 conical from Lyman a bullet with a 1.155 bullet length and according to greenhill, my 1-20 twist (devised originally by the Whitworth's, Gibbs', and Henry's of old) is spot on.

Aloha... :cool:
 
Ok, i just checked the twist in my walker barrel as best i could. A groove that starts at the top of the brrel ends at almost exactly the bottom of the barrel when looking down the bore with a light.Showed the same way with a marked cleaning rod.That would be one turn in 18 inches right? My gun is a 1968 ASM. The tip of the ball ram on my gun is obviously shaped for a very pointed bullet too, not a round ball.I am thinking my old gun was maybe made more to original spects than the newer walkers,looks like it is set up for those old pointy pickit conicals.
 
Rattus: You mentioned "bore sized" conicals. Is it any different were you to use a bullet in a sabot or does the twist stay the same vs the length (of the bullet or does the sabot count?)?
 
rodwha said:
Rattus: You mentioned "bore sized" conicals. Is it any different were you to use a bullet in a sabot or does the twist stay the same vs the length (of the bullet or does the sabot count?)?
Click to expand...
I had a long and drawn out response to you and waited too long to post it... so since I suffer from the oldtimers, yer now gonna have take the condensed version of my opinions... :D

I personally believe that if a bullet will stabililze in a certain twist in its proper bore, nothing changes in a sabot. So if your bullet needs a 1:48 to stabilize it needs 1-48". If your bullet, like a .308 for example, needs 1-12 or thereabouts... it won't in my opinion, fly in my 1-70 no matter how fast I push it, and in my .41, with a 1-18 twist I might have a chance, but doubtful in my 1-24 or 1-48's.

These are my opinions and represent the extent of my upbringin.... :D

Aloha... :cool:
 
I was thunkin Uberti when I mentioned the 1-48 twist.
Kituwa, what do you think of the Dixie Gun Works scissors moulds? They could have a spru cut-off made fer one too if a person didn't want to clip with the wire cutters.
Ifin yer ASM Walker has the 1-18 twist I think it could have a real good chance of stabilizing a conical. A heavier bullet wouldn't be a bad thing shootin at those "hogs". They's tough critters.
I read an article on the subject of sing a Walker fer big hogs. Close range shootin once the dogs got it cornered and two shots that went thru to the off side under the hide shot from the side. The hog died. ha ha ha
I guess the subject of ball versa conicals would show they are both good and the scenario of what's to be done with them dictates what's the best to use.
I think ,if I were to hog hunt with my Uberti Walker, I'd use a conical if I could get enough powder in the chambers. The distance being short if usin dogs a Uberti that's not real accurate with the conicals would work. I'd be thunkin of usin 777 powder or Pyrodex Pistol or FFFFg Goex and hope it didn't hurt my gun. I'd probably want to harden the bullets some to the point I could still get them in the chambers.
 
Rifle, the scissor mold sounds like a good start to me. A round ball works good on game,way better than it should givin their light weight. Soft lead just does not follow the same rules that people are used to in modern guns and loads.But if a soft lead round ball works like it does,,then if a gun will shoot a longer flat base or conical bullet accurate then they should work even better. I really dont think the point shape makes any diffrence with soft lead, they start to flatten almost right away.It would seem that a soft bullet will not penatrate well but my experiance has proved otherwise to me. Useing harder lead and Kieth style slugs and the gun will start to act more like a cartridge gun i think. Thats not all a bad thing but im thinking the soft lead slug may have some advantages that you cant take advantage of in a modern gun because of leading problems.The walker has the perfect cylinder for useing conicals because they really work better without the chamber filled to the brim.45 grains of T7 leaves plenty of room to still seat a slug and should still pack a wallop.Actually, im thinking that trying to reach too high of velocity may be working against you to some degree when useing soft lead bullets.
 
Take the .410 shotgun with slugs,,on paper they come out to be worse than a .38 special. But that .410 slug kills a deer dead dead dead at close range. Soft lead light weight and moving rather slow but they almost always get complete pass thru's.
 
So many variables to consider. I think as you do start to stretch the distance out my slug guns may start to have a leg up on my RB match guns. My RB 62 bench gun with redfield Olympic sites groups under an inch for 5 shots at 100 yards. Some scoped cf rifles dont do as well much less an iron sighted one
788884e46fe53c0caac768c8bd524bd0.gif
 
Well at around 50lbs it doesn't move much so that helps! I don't think the cf guys recognize how hard it can be to shoot bp well. The flash of a flinter and delay or the physical activity required (esp for the big guns) coupled with a new site picture 5 min after your last shot, it is what makes it fun, RB or conical. Anyway, for fun here is a 2 part swaged conicals, on the right are 2 69 caliber slugs 1780 grains(2 different profiles i use). Then a smaller .485 680 grain round next to a 250g .45/148g .357/55g .22
933f79d9.gif
Here is a civil war era conical shooter

Still Shootin well, took 1 st at camp perry 600 yrd match and does quite well at 100
c7823d41.gif
10 shots at 100, some may recognize the shooter
8b9dcfb5.gif
 
Plastikosmd said:
Well at around 50lbs it doesn't move much so that helps! I don't think the cf guys recognize how hard it can be to shoot bp well. The flash of a flinter and delay or the physical activity required (esp for the big guns) coupled with a new site picture 5 min after your last shot, it is what makes it fun, RB or conical. Anyway, for fun here is a 2 part swaged conicals, on the right are 2 69 caliber slugs 1780 grains(2 different profiles i use). Then a smaller .485 680 grain round next to a 250g .45/148g .357/55g .22
933f79d9.gif
Here is a civil war era conical shooter

Still Shootin well, took 1 st at camp perry 600 yrd match and does quite well at 100
c7823d41.gif
10 shots at 100, some may recognize the shooter
8b9dcfb5.gif
Click to expand...
Lester Cox... wasn't that halfway through the last century? Edit... of course it was.... date is on the target... :cool:

I forget where I heard that name... wasn't he a gunsmith who liked to make slug guns?

That target you have posted 100 yards and yer natural eyesight is phenomenal...

You have to admire them that shoot for the business of shooting... I'm in awe actually!

Thanks for the post!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

I
  • Locked
New to casting ball and conical.
Replies
24
Views
959
wittzo
W
L
  • Locked
Conical Bullets anf Ruger Old Army
Replies
5
Views
994
kanook
kanook
Z
  • Locked
Opinions on conical bullets in ROA?
Replies
4
Views
980
hildo
H
S
  • Locked
Lee Conical in a Cap and Ball
Replies
4
Views
3K
Hellgate
Hellgate
gtrgy888
  • Locked
Why did historical molds have roundball?
2
Replies
46
Views
3K
drobs
drobs
Back
Top