Consent to search.

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Johnnykat

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In South Carolina if you have a "CWP" and you are approached by "LEO" you must inform when you are carrying a hand gun, even if you are in your car and the hand gun is in the glove box and not on your person you must inform the "LEO".
My question is during a traffic stop you tell the officer about a hand gun in the glove box does this give the officer the right to search your automobile? When he says he needs to remove the weapon for his protection, can he go into your vehicle without your consent?
 
It depends!

Legally carring a weapon pursuant to the terms of a state-issued CWP is not an offense, and does not give LEOs free reign to search.

If, however, the officer has "reasonable suspicion" that you have comitted a crime (possibly including speeding), and you inform him of your CWP (or any other weapon that you might be carrying) he then will likely have cause to search your person and and portions of your vehicle. While he probably will not be able to open the trunk, anything within the "grabbable space" is fair game. This includes the glove box, center console, and most of the passenger compartment.

If an officer decides to conduct a search, politely but firmly state that you decline to waive any of your rights and do not consent to the search. Make sure you speak loudly so the cop camera gets it on tape. The cop may search anyway, but it will give your lawyer something to play with should you be taken into custody for whatever reason.
 
LEOs can search your vehicle for any reason they want, whenever they want, regardless of whether or not you give consent. It sucks but that is how it is.

Be polite ,be firm, and just say no as assertively as possible without being a bunghole and hope that the dash cam is not "malfunctioning" that day.:rolleyes:
 
LEOs can search your vehicle for any reason they want, whenever they want, regardless of whether or not you give consent. It sucks but that is how it is.

No, they most certainly cannot. :rolleyes: Often times they will force an illegal search, but if they find anything it is not evidence and they will probably be reprimanded if you can prove it was an illegal search. That's why cops have cameras now. It's for our protection as much as theirs. Cops will play word games with you and try to trick you into giving consent, but most of them won't bother to search if they know they don't have it. Those that do will be in trouble.
 
What johnnykat talks of is not a search but considered a frisk for the protection of the officer which is allowed by the USSC.

LEOs can search your vehicle for any reason they want, whenever they want, regardless of whether or not you give consent. It sucks but that is how it is.
Not even in the slightest is this correct.
 
I did not say it was legal, or right but just search this site for un consented search video. It happens all the time. That is why I said "just hope their video is functioning at the time, or better yet, have your own.
 
"Often times they will force an illegal search..."

No. Try, "Some times..." There is a difference.

I've been stopped quite a few times for speeding, these last nearly-fifty years of driving. I've yet to have a cop ask to search.

Texas law sez I gotta show my CHL during a traffic stop. The most I've been asked is where is the handgun located. "In the console," sez me. "Okay," sez the cop, with no further interest. (I'm omitting bull-sessions about guns in general and "How'd your hunting go, this season?")

Art
 
"Often times they will force an illegal search..."

No. Try, "Some times..." There is a difference.

I've been stopped quite a few times for speeding, these last nearly-fifty years of driving. I've yet to have a cop ask to search.

Texas law sez I gotta show my CHL during a traffic stop. The most I've been asked is where is the handgun located. "In the console," sez me. "Okay," sez the cop, with no further interest. (I'm omitting bull-sessions about guns in general and "How'd your hunting go, this season?")

Art
 
No. Try, "Some times..." There is a difference.

Oh, so just because YOU have never been searched illegally means they don't do it very often? Bull****. It happens every day in every state. And yes it has happened to me.
 
I have never been searched either, but I have heard of one that happened. The guy searched was starting some ride alongs to become an LEO and knew the sheriff. The officer was ordered to stop by his work and apologize.

I have been stopped a few different times. No searches. 2 were just what Art described only they asked what I carried. The other happened the only time I was actually wearing a gun. The officer asked me to get out of the car and wanted to see where I was carrying it. Just a verbal warning on that one. His partner did look through the window I guess. :)
 
Oh, so just because YOU have never been searched illegally means they don't do it very often? Bull****. It happens every day in every state. And yes it has happened to me.

Two things.

First, the man said some times. He didn't say never. Just because it has happened to you don't mean its happened to everyone else. As to your assertion about it happening every day in every state, I'd love to see some facts or figures backing that up.

Second. I'd check your tone with Mr. Eatman. You'll last here alot longer by not pissing off the brass.
 
I have never been searched either, but I have heard of one that happened. The guy searched was starting some ride alongs to become an LEO and knew the sheriff. The officer was ordered to stop by his work and apologize.


So a simple apology offered under duress is adequate relief for a violation of
ones civil rights. How sad. And disgusting.
 
you think

"So a simple apology offered under duress is adequate relief for a violation of
ones civil rights. How sad. And disgusting.
__________________"

that drawing your conclusion based on the paiucity of available info on what happened could be described as reaching?
 
Never been searched either nor even asked, but did witness one about 12 years ago.

After a night of shooting pool with my friends at Pinke's (local pool hall with pink felt on the tables), we decided to head to a nearby restaurant to get a bit to eat. As we rolled into the parking lot, some of the local cops had some dude streched out over a cop car and were riffling around in the guys pockets. The guy kept asking "SIR! AM I UNDER ARREST?" but got no reply from the cops. We only hung out in the parking lot long enough for me to get my helmet off and remove the male Phidippus audax that had hitched a ride on the mirror of my motorcycle, then went inside to eat as one of my friends was in the "Quentin Tarentino" stage of his life, involved with all kinds of shady characters, heroin addicted Dominatrix of a GFriend, guns... :banghead: and he wanted no part of that event.
 
If you want printed court cases to back up everything you're gonna be dissappointed a lot. What gets talked about on forums is just that. TALK.

Even with available supporting stories on the internet there is lots of room for conjecture and error. It's the nature of this particular creature. If you need cold hard evidence to support peoples assertions on an internet forum
get used to doing without.

If a poster states he knows of a situation where a friend was subjected to a search and that the officer was forced to apologize by a superior because the person subjected to the search was able to access said superior to complain I will take said story at face value and if I feel like it will make a comment. If you need hard evidence to substantiate the claim made? ......tough. It ain't gonna happen.
 
i'm confused

while i admire the candor with which you hedge your bet by aknowledging conjecture and error i might not be enlightened enough to cull the answer to the question about your reaching on the earlier post? talk slow use small words for me was that a yes? or a no?:p

and even if we take the story at face value and like you i see no reason not to how does the train leave that station and arrive at civil rights violation?
 
So a simple apology offered under duress is adequate relief for a violation of ones civil rights. How sad. And disgusting.

What would you consider adequate relief?

I personally think there needs to be some way in which LE misconduct can be adequate addressed but it is a lot easier to say that than to actually do anything about it.
 
First, the man said some times. He didn't say never.

And I said often, not always. Just because he is a moderator does not make his opinions more important or more correct than mine. He didn't provide any proof either.

Aside from that, arguing semantics is just stupid. The fact is thousands of vehicles are searched every day. If you think they are all done by the book you are delusional.
 
but if they find anything it is not evidence and they will probably be reprimanded if you can prove it was an illegal search.

I personally think there needs to be some way in which LE misconduct can be adequate addressed but it is a lot easier to say that than to actually do anything about it.

Sometimes those who do are punished rather than the cops. A reporter exposed police corruption in Florida, showing how the police obstruct citizens from filing complaints. They made attempts at 38 police stations, they were met with hostility and in the end, only 3 cooperated. As a result, the police retaliated by publishing the reporters personal information, home address, phone number, etc and putting him on their wanted list.

http://cbs4.com/local/local_story_086232143.html
 
As a result, the police retaliated by publishing the reporters personal information, home address, phone number, etc and putting him on their wanted list.

Like animal farm. All people are equal, some are just more equal than others. :rolleyes:
 
I would like to draw attention to the wide gray line here, between the black and the white. My interaction with leo wanting to search was not a polite, "May I search your vehicle, sir"... It was, "I need to search your vehicle, sir". The authoritarian attitude, assumed that I would follow blindly and allow the search. It was easy to assume this was a command, and not a request. That was a learned tactic, I assume taught by other leos, or an academy.

They are not required to tell us we can refuse. They are not even required to tell us that they are asking permission.
 
Police have to ask permission for a reason. Sure they can bully you and hope you crack, but you can always say no.

Their comeback to you saying "no" is usually "Well fine, we can go get a warrant while you sit here for four hours, and then we'll still search your car." This is a bluff. My buddy is a cop and laughs about how many times people fall for it.
 
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traffic stops and an actual case

http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/archive/supct/0512/opa041530-1201.htm

This is an actual case involving a traffic stop that I am quite familiar with, as I litigated it – won at the trial court level :) , reversed by the court of appeals :cuss: , won again at the supreme court :D . While this is applicable to Minnesota law, as it follows Minnesota’s analysis under the Minnesota constitution, it is instructive of the analysis of a traffic stop.

BTW, in MN the fact that a driver has CCW and informs officer of fact that there is a firearm in the vehicle specifically does not allow for a search. In fact, when running drivers license information, the fact that a driver has a carry permit will come up, followed by a notation that this alone does not provide grounds for any search.

Basically, all these cases involving traffic stops relate back to the 1968 case: Terry v. Ohio.

The federal and state constitutions prohibit unreasonable searches and seizures. U.S. Const. amend. IV; Minn. Const. art. 1, § 10. Generally, it is constitutionally impermissible for police officers to search or seize an individual unless the officers have “an arrest warrant, search warrant or have probable cause to make an arrest.” Wold v. State, 430 N.W.2d 171, 174 (1988). The proscription against warrantless searches and seizures is “subject only to a few specifically established and well delineated exceptions.” Minnesota v. Dickerson, 508 U.S. 366, 372, 113 S. Ct. 2130, 2135 (1993) (quotations and citation omitted). For instance, under certain circumstances, an officer may perform an investigative stop of an individual and conduct a protective pat-search for weapons even if the officer does not have probable cause to make an arrest. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 22, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 1880 (1968). The search and seizure, however, “must be founded upon some objective justification” such as:

a reasonable suspicion entertained by a police officer based upon the officer’s experience that criminal activity may be taking place and that the individual with whom the officer is confronted may be armed and capable of immediately causing permanent harm.

For Fourth Amendment purposes, stopping a vehicle and detaining its occupants constitutes a seizure. Deleware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648, 653, 99 S. Ct. 1391, 1396 (1979) (citations omitted). Generally, the detention that follows a lawful traffic stop “may not continue indefinitely but only as long as reasonably necessary to effectuate the purpose of the stop.” State v. Blacksten, 507 N.W.2d 842, 846 (Minn. 1993).

The Minnesota Supreme Court has demonstrated a willingness to afford its citizens a greater protection of their right to be free from overzealous law enforcement than they presently enjoy under the Fourth Amendment. For example, the use of temporary roadblocks as sobriety checkpoints was found to violate Article 1, section 10 of the Minnesota Constitution, Ascher v. Comm’r of Public Safety, 519 N.W.2d 183, 186 (Minn. 1994), despite the U.S. Supreme Court’s acceptance of such practices under the Fourth Amendment. Michigan v. Dep’t of Public Safety v. Sitz, 496 U.S. 444 (1990). The Minnesota Supreme Court maintained that any investigative traffic stops must instead be based on an objective individualized suspicion of criminal wrongdoing. Ascher, 519 N.W. at 186.

In order to support a Terry stop, the officer must have “specific and articuable facts” supporting the reasonable belief that the individual has committed an offense.

To support a “frisk”, a limited search to determine if the individual has weapons, the officer must have “specific and articuable facts” to support a reasonable belief that the individual is armed and dangerous. The Terry frisk is not an investigative search, and is limited to a pat down to determine if the person has weapons.

Traffic stops that segue into searches have been one of the most active areas of constitutional litigation in the criminal arena for the past 7-8 years. Traffic stops and searches, either consent or otherwise, have been a favorite tool in drug interdiction efforts. The debate and litigation involving traffic stops and searches has involved, among other issues, racial profiling, consent/coercion and pre-textual stops.

Bottom line: no, a LEO cannot search you or your vehicle simply because of a speeding stop. In order to frisk you, they would have to satisfy Terry with specific facts supporting a reasonable belief that you are armed and dangerous. In order to do a full scale search of you or your vehicle, they need : probable cause, or; a search incident to a custodial arrest, or; if they impound your car, they can do an inventory search pursuant to department/agency policy.
 
Police have to ask permission for a reason. Sure they can bully you and hope you crack, but you can always say no.

Their comeback to you saying "no" is usually "Well fine, we can go get a warrant while you sit here for four hours, and then we'll still search your car." This is a bluff. My buddy is a cop and laughs about how many times people fall for it.

And if there is no one present but the officer and the driver and said officer decides to search the car without even asking for permission it's just the word of the officer against the word of the driver as to whether permission was given or not. Without external corroboration, in court when the driver says " I did not give permission for a search" and the officer states, " I searched the vehicle in question after obtaining consent from the suspect"
who's word is the one being taken at face value and whose word is assumed to be a lie.

That is the heart of the problem.

When outside witness are present I am sure the police follow procedure. They're not stupid. But when you're on the side of I 80 70 miles from the nearest stoplight after dark and it's just you and the officer a lot can happen. And it isn't always the truth.

And if you try and tell me officers don't lie because they don't have any reason too I will simply point you in the direction of the latest soap opera in Atlanta. Police misconduct is like an iceberg, we only see the tip of it, the most obvious and blatant misconduct.

The majority of the wrongs perepetrated in the name of the law are at a much lower level of injury and harm. Most people act like the average consumer. Most people who have a legitimate beef with a business don't actually file a complaint with management to try and have the situation resolved. Most just take their business elsewhere and do damage by word of mouth. In the case of abuse by law enforcement there is no option of "taking business elsewhere". The only recourse if you choose to not expose yourself to retaliation for filing a complaint is to bitch and moan anonymously in the local paper or on the internet.
 
Aside from that, arguing semantics is just stupid. The fact is thousands of vehicles are searched every day. If you think they are all done by the book you are delusional.

Baloney. If the problem is as pervasive as you suggest, lets see some facts or something to corroborate your assertion. "Cause it happened to me or by buddy" is a statistical zero.

You and others here bitch about how dirty all the cops are and yet I've somehow managed to miraculously make it all these 25 years without any trouble at all. The same goes for my family, friends, and co-workers.

I'm sick of seeing all of these "the PD are gestapo" threads. Unless people can show me some evidence that suggests its anything other then bad apples at random times its all bunk.
 
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