Consent to search.

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its just bad luck

that all his police encounters turn ugly has nothin to do with his attitude and demeanor. and on the flip side you me and the other 90 some percent of folks are just lucky. i had a guy once point out to me that the one commom=n denominator in a series of confrontational incidents sin my life was me and being a drunken boor. that most likely the other ten folks weren't all wrong but that only works in my life i guess cause i have good luck not bad luck like some folks seem to talk about so much
 
The last time I was searched was when I was 17. Out moshing and trespassing. I was accused of being under the influence of something. They searched, but never found anything. The last time I was pulled over I had a firearm in my truck. CA legal transport and all that. I didn't offer that info and he never asked. I will never give consent out of principal. If they have PC then the situation is out of my hands.
 
How many examples would you like? There are thousands more if you simply google "illegal police search".

I asked for facts and you gave me more anecdotal evidence. Two of those links were also bogus as well. I have no doubt that there are bad apples that work for PD's all across the country. However, the exception does not the rule make.

Show me some information that tells me that this is something pervasive, or even significant enough to be a stastistic and I'll stop and listen. Till then alot of smoke about something that just isn't the case.
 
How 'bout you prove that they don't then? This is not high school, I'm not doing your homework for you. If you don't believe me I couldn't care less. And I'm not wasting anymore breath on you.

And no, none of those links are "bogus". :rolleyes:
 
aw come on big block

since you've never done anything wrong share with us a couple of the host of horrors visited upon you by the storm troopers. your the last innocent guy in america so you don't need to be shy. we all believe this " you"re right this isn't high schooll so what is it sophmore year of college?
 
Can't prove a negative, and because you made the assertion, the onus is on you.

As far as the links, a letter to the editor stating that "the cops pull over people for just being black, is this ok?" has zero factual value. Thats an assumption by someone who has no firsthand experience. The other is a website telling you how to protect your rights. Again it says nothing about what actually happens.

Thats like saying every home has has a fire and then linking to a website telling you how to eliminate fire hazards.

Again, facts, not stories.
 
facts?

and the silence is deafening. even just the facts about the time after time he was abused would beat a blank
 
facts

Guys, don’t argue over what happens in traffic stops. Actually, I have far more data than I could possibly bog the forum with – I litigate, on average, half a dozen traffic stop cases each month, as well as teaching constitutional criminal law, so I have a tremendous amount of resources regarding traffic stops. This is not all that surprising, as traffic stops, one of the most common police – citizen contacts, has been subjected to considerable scrutiny and study over the last ten years. The original impetus for this involved issues of race. For anyone who is seriously interested in this issue, I can provide a number of state studies in PDF form. These are studies by the individual states. Be warned that these are pretty lengthy and rather dry – North Carolina’s study, for example, runs between 400 and 500 pages; Minnesota’s is over 250 pages. I can also refer you to a reading list of recent texts examining constitutional issues and drug interdiction, which was one of the term paper subjects this fall semester. Traffic stops figure prominently in this area. For that matter, I could send you some pretty good term papers.

Most studies found significant statistical variance indicating problems in traffic stops.

The study by the Minnesota Supreme Court, for example, summarized:

“A basic pattern emerges from our analysis of traffic stop data collected by the sixty-five law enforcement jurisdictions that voluntarily participated in this racial profiling study:
Law enforcement officers stopped Black, Latino, and American Indian drivers at greater rates than White drivers, searched Blacks, Latinos, and American Indians at greater rates than White drivers, and found contraband as a result of searches of Blacks, Latinos, and American Indians at lower rates than in searches of White drivers. Conversely, law enforcement officers stopped and searched White drivers at lower rates than drivers of color and found contraband in searches of White drivers at a greater rate than in searches of drivers of color.”

“For example, in Minneapolis, Blacks were stopped 152% more often than expected and once stopped, subjected to discretionary searches 52% more often than expected. 11% of searches of Blacks produced contraband compared to 13% of searches of Whites. If Minneapolis officers had stopped Blacks at the same rate as other drivers approximately 12,804 fewer Blacks would have been stopped in Minneapolis in 2002. If Blacks stopped in Minneapolis had been subjected to discretionary searches at the same rate as all stopped drivers, 1,053 fewer Blacks would have been searched.”

The racial profiling issue raised not only questions of fact, but a lot of emotion, as well. The first thing to understand is that it really is not about individual officers, or racist officers. Racial profiling is not about "a few bad apples" or a few racist White officers. That does not mean that there are no “bad apples”, or racists of a variety of colors in law enforcement, the same as anywhere else. The core of the problem is institutional, not individual. The issue has to be approached at the level of training and policy. For example, responding to a 2000 Department of Justice study on contacts with the police, the majority of Black men said they were equally likely to be stopped by Black or White officers.

For years the institutional assumption has been that it is good law enforcement to focus on race or ethnic appearance as a factor in deciding whom to stop or search. Contrary to what some may think, when race becomes one of the factors, law enforcement becomes less productive with respect to arrests or getting guns off the street. Check the data. Law enforcement has lower "hits” with a race-based system than when a completely behavioral based system is used.

Refer to The Myth of Racial Profiling by Dr. MacDonald or Harris, Profiles In Injustice: Why Racial Profiling Cannot Work (The New Press, 2002). Also look at - studies of racial profiling was done by John Lamberth, who uses violator benchmarks and who has expanded his methods in various urban and suburban settings in Kansas; Matt Zingraffin's work in North Carolina; work by Columbia University researchers for the New York Office of the Attorney General. Their study includes data on 180,000 stop-and- frisk encounters over 15 months.

The fact is that there is a huge amount of data regarding traffic stops available.

The study of the racial element led to the examination of other issues in the context of traffic stops, notably consent searches and pretext stops. The mania of the drug war led to routine traffic stops as a drug interdiction tool, and that led to officers wanting to, and asking to, search lots of cars. The trend arising out of the actuarial data of the late 90s on led many states to restrict the use of “consent” searches in routine traffic stops. Minnesota, for example, applies a temporal analysis that requires that the officer have reasonable suspicion to support the continued detention and the request for consent (see the cited case earlier in this thread for a thorough analysis). If consent is not given, of course, the officer needs probable cause. The Carroll rule allows search without a warrant in most cases. Other states require an advisory, similar to Miranda, prior to consent; some states require a signed waiver. Are there searches without consent? Of course there are. Thousands? Nationwide, of course there are, given the huge number of stops occurring.

Nothing I am saying attempts to portray law enforcement officers as the bad guys – quite to the contrary. Actually, I am the guy who, as a speaker to a conference of several hundred defense attorneys, told a persistent questioner from the audience who had a very obvious and toxic anti-police attitude, “OK, if you are ever in a bad wreck on the highway, you can call the *%#!% ACLU – if it is me, I plan to call 911 and pray for a deputy, officer or trooper to come save my &%#.”

If nothing else, I am usually an interesting lecturer, if a bit impatient with foolish comments. :neener:

An officer can ask to search – and the citizen can say no. Do I think it is a good policy to ask to search a citizen’s car every time there is a stop for minor traffic offenses? No, I don’t much like that policy, and in recent years many courts and agencies agree - the trend has been away from that approach. Still, asking is not unconstitutional. Coercion, bullying and the like in the face of refusal, on the other hand, well may be.
One problem is, though, that the litigated cases only address cases where there was evidence found resulting in criminal charges. What you can find in the statistical studies is the vast number of citizens who are searched, sometimes under claim of right, where there are no charges.

Even in cases that I win on constitutional grounds, are the officers “bad guys”? Almost always, no. Are they engaged in aggressive law enforcement? Well, yes – there is a line there, and if you are doing your job you know where that line is and you sometimes come near it. Sometimes you step out of bounds, too. Of course, I have run into officers who were abusive, or dishonest, or a variety of other failings – same as I have with defense attorneys, probation officers, judges, administrative staff, etc.

The bottom line: Law enforcement can be both respectful and effective. In fact, having handled thousands of cases handled by dozens of different departments and agencies, I think it usually is. This is what every American should demand.
 
And if there is no one present but the officer and the driver and said officer decides to search the car without even asking for permission it's just the word of the officer against the word of the driver as to whether permission was given or not. Without external corroboration, in court when the driver says " I did not give permission for a search" and the officer states, " I searched the vehicle in question after obtaining consent from the suspect"
who's word is the one being taken at face value and whose word is assumed to be a lie.

I don't see that being all that likely using Richmond's numbers. When we're talking that say 11-13% of the time a search yields contraband (which btw is surprisingly low compared to what I would have guessed), you have a very large number of drivers who just had an illegal search done with no charges as a result. If this is a common practice that could be a potentially very loud collective voice pointing out a problem. I think it would be hard to ignore this happening were it common place. I have no doubt that proper consent isn't always given, both on accident and intentionally, but I don't think an academic quality study on how often it actually happens would show it being that common. Plus it seems quite dangerous to one's career.
 
Last cop that pulled me over asked to search my car. I told him no. He wanted it bad. I seriously thought he was going to have a temper tantrum right there in the middle of the street. But in the end he just let me continue on my way. I didn't get searched or ticketed, just delayed and embarassed by my neighbors wondering if I was some kind of criminal.
 
Interesting

Never read that one before.

And I'm gonna have to read it a couple more times before I fully gasp it.

Very interesting.
 
i just find it interesting that lot of people on here who are on the "the cops are evil" side haven't had a personal "illegal search" experience themselves, but they all seem to know someone who has experienced it. some are also full of "what-if" scenarios.

the assumption made here is that most if not all cops will abuse their authority, so when it their word against yours then be prepared to get your rights violated. also they video cameras or audio recordings, if they have them, will most certainly not be working at this time.

oh well. i dont even want to get into this specific discussion thread, as it seems to be on 3 or 4 separate threads on THR at this given moment.

just the usual anti-LE guys posting again......whose names will remain anonymous. :D
 
Typical head in the sand response from the apologists. I have stated quite clearly that my town has a stellar police department. I made it quite clear that I have several friends on the Chicago PD as well. As I happen to be a fairly good driver, I don't get pulled over very often. Last time was 2 1/2 years ago and the cop asked to search and I told him no, I don't have time to waste and he let me go. So I do have personal experience with it.

But, you have to be blind, or a government apologist, not to see the problem with roadblocks, growing police powers, changing police attitudes, Real ID, and the militarization of the police. We need to stop it now before it gets out of control. Just stating over and over again that the problem doesn't exist is not a good way to safeguard the tree of liberty.
 
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