Constitutional protections? BWAHAHAHAHA!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sindawe

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
3,480
Location
Outside The People's Republic of Boulder, CO
Searched, did not find this posted up yet so hopefully its not a duplicate.

I've seen this from several news sites and discussion forums. If the articles are reflective of what the proposed legislation actually is, this is very bad for us the citizens. MAYBE it would be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, but I'd not hold my breath on that.
White House Proposal Would Expand Authority of Military Courts


By R. Jeffrey Smith
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, August 2, 2006; A04


A draft Bush administration plan for special military courts seeks to expand the reach and authority of such "commissions" to include trials, for the first time, of people who are not members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban and are not directly involved in acts of international terrorism, according to officials familiar with the proposal.

The plan, which would replace a military trial system ruled illegal by the Supreme Court in June, would also allow the secretary of defense to add crimes at will to those under the military court's jurisdiction. The two provisions would be likely to put more individuals than previously expected before military juries, officials and independent experts said.

The draft proposed legislation, set to be discussed at two Senate hearings today, is controversial inside and outside the administration because defendants would be denied many protections guaranteed by the civilian and traditional military criminal justice systems.

Under the proposed procedures, defendants would lack rights to confront accusers, exclude hearsay accusations, or bar evidence obtained through rough or coercive interrogations. They would not be guaranteed a public or speedy trial and would lack the right to choose their military counsel, who in turn would not be guaranteed equal access to evidence held by prosecutors.

Detainees would also not be guaranteed the right to be present at their own trials, if their absence is deemed necessary to protect national security or individuals.

An early draft of the new measure prepared by civilian political appointees and leaked to the media last week has been modified in response to criticism from uniformed military lawyers. But the provisions allowing a future expansion of the courts to cover new crimes and more prisoners were retained, according to government officials familiar with the deliberations.

The military lawyers received the draft after the rest of the government had agreed on it. They have argued in recent days for retaining some routine protections for defendants that the political appointees sought to jettison, an administration official said.

They objected in particular to the provision allowing defendants to be tried in absentia, said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to describe the deliberations. Another source in contact with top military lawyers said, "Their initial impression is that the draft was unacceptable and sloppy." The source added that "it did not have enough due-process rights" and could further tarnish America's image.

The military lawyers nonetheless supported extending the jurisdiction of the commissions to cover those accused of joining or associating with terrorist groups engaged in anti-U.S. hostilities, and of committing or aiding hostile acts by such groups, whether or not they are part of al-Qaeda, two U.S. officials said.

That language gives the commissions broader reach than anticipated in a November 2001 executive order from President Bush that focused only on members of al-Qaeda, those who commit international terrorist acts and those who harbor such individuals.

Some independent experts say the new procedures diverge inappropriately from existing criminal procedures and provide no more protections than the ones struck down by the Supreme Court as inadequate. John D. Hutson, the Navy's top uniformed lawyer from 1997 to 2000, said the rules would evidently allow the government to tell a prisoner: "We know you're guilty. We can't tell you why, but there's a guy, we can't tell you who, who told us something. We can't tell you what, but you're guilty."

Bruce Fein, an associate deputy attorney general during the Reagan administration, said after reviewing the leaked draft that "the theme of the government seems to be 'They are guilty anyway, and therefore due process can be slighted.' " With these procedures, Fein said, "there is a real danger of getting a wrong verdict" that would let a lower-echelon detainee "rot for 30 years" at Guantanamo Bay because of evidence contrived by personal enemies.

But Kris Kobach, a senior Justice Department lawyer in Bush's first term who now teaches at the University of Missouri at Kansas City, said he believes that the draft strikes an appropriate balance between "a fundamentally fair trial" and "the ability to protect the effectiveness of U.S. military and intelligence assets."

Administration officials have said that the exceptional trial procedures are warranted because the fight against terrorism requires heavy reliance on classified information or on evidence obtained from a defendant's collaborators, which cannot be shared with the accused. The draft legislation cites the goal of ensuring fair treatment without unduly diverting military personnel from wartime assignments to present evidence in trials.

The provisions are closely modeled on earlier plans for military commissions, which the Supreme Court ruled illegal two months ago in a case brought by Salim Ahmed Hamdan, a Yemeni imprisoned in the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. "It is not evident why the danger posed by international terrorism, considerable though it is, should require, in the case of Hamdan, any variance from the courts-martial rules," the court's majority decision held.

No one at Guantanamo has been tried to date, though some prisoners have been there since early 2002.

John Yoo, a former Justice Department lawyer who helped draft the earlier plan, said Bush administration officials essentially "took DOD regulations" for the trials "and turned them into a statute for Congress to pass." He said the drafters were obviously "trying to return the law to where it was before Hamdan " by writing language into the draft that challenges key aspects of the court's decision.

"Basically, this is trying to overrule the Hamdan case," said Neal K. Katyal, a Georgetown University law professor who was Hamdan's lead attorney.

The plan calls for commissions of five military officers appointed by the defense secretary to try defendants for any of 25 listed crimes. It gives the secretary the unilateral right to "specify other violations of the laws of war that may be tried by military commission." The secretary would be empowered to prescribe detailed procedures for carrying out the trials, including "modes of proof" and the use of hearsay evidence.

Unlike the international war crimes tribunals for Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia, the commissions could rely on hearsay as the basis for a conviction. Unlike routine military courts-martial, in which prosecutors must overcome several hurdles to use such evidence, the draft legislation would put the burden on the defense team to block its use.

The admission of hearsay is a serious problem, said Tom Malinowski, director of the Washington office of Human Rights Watch, because defendants might not know if it was gained through torture and would have difficulty challenging it on that basis. Nothing in the draft law prohibits using evidence obtained through cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment that falls short of torture, Malinowski said.

The U.S. official countered that a military judge "would look hard" at the origins of such evidence and that defendants would have to count on "the trustworthiness of the system."

To secure a death penalty under the draft legislation, at least five jurors must agree, two fewer than under the administration's earlier plan. Courts-martial and federal civilian trials require that 12 jurors agree.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101334.html
 
MAYBE it would be declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court

Ah, fortunately we have Bush in office to appoint strict-construction, rights-respecting SC justices!

On a serious note, it wouldn't even come to the SC's attention until some poor schmuck got hauled off and secretly tried, and somehow managed to get a lawyer and appeal the decision up the judicial ladder for years. Assuming they would let him/her appeal to a real court. What with due process and all, the SC might well refuse to hear such a case because it didn't come through the proper channels.
 
"...set to be discussed at two Senate hearings today..."

Did anybody watch C-Span?

I'm guessing it would be the Senate Judiciary Committee, or a sub-committee thereof.

Art
 
Sen. Arlen Specter (Chair of the Senate Judiciary Comm.) doesn't like it. He suggests that it doesn't allow enough input from Congress!?

You can download the rough draft (36 pages) here.
 
Universal surveillance without any limits. Torture - calling it "torture lite" is as pathetic as anything I've heard in decades. Secret evidence. No due process for citizens. Defendants not allowed to their own trials. Indefinite detention without charges. Arbitrary and unappealable lists of who may and may not travel. Crimes added to the "outside the law" list at the whim of the Executive. Newseek reports "theoretical discussions" in the White House about the President having the power to order assassinations of US citizens on American soil.

This is in the same territory as Stalin, the Stasi and Argentina or Chile at the depths of their "Dirty Wars".

Back in the day conservatives were strong supporters of Constitutional freedoms and hated tyranny. Who hijacked conservatism? When did the RWAs take control? How bad has it gotten when Bob Barr and Phyllis Schlafly work for the ACLU and Kevin Phillips and John Dean say "The lunatics have taken over the asylum and are destroying the principles on which the Republic was founded"?

That "damned piece of paper" means less and less, and I fear it will soon be superseded by State of Emergency and Partial Mobilization, which translates roughly to :

Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul,
ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
 
Very disturbing. To what are they dragging us ladies and gentlemen? I have a feeling that whatever it is we won't like it. :cuss:
 
The U.S. official countered that a military judge "would look hard" at the origins of such evidence and that defendants would have to count on "the trustworthiness of the system."
:what: BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Thank the SCOTUS & the Whiners

This is what you get when the SCOTUS steps outside its bounds:
1. Declares the USA bound by provisions of a treaty we did not sign (thus usurping, unConstitutionally, power)
2. Interprets completely backwards the meaning of provisions of treaties we did sign
3. Interjects itself into matters outside its purview

To put it the other way, this is fruit of the tree of Hamdan, which declared the executive could not hold military tribunals of terrorists caught in the field.

Also, all of y'all who whined and squealed about GWB's administration doing so bear responsibility for the upcoming legislation. And have no doubt, this legislation will pass. We must have some means of dealing with illegal enemy combatants (as defined by treaties the USA did sign) we nab outside of giving them a ticket to Cr@pholeistan & letting them free.

Enough folks in Congress are in touch with reality and will make it happen. Sens Specter & Graham have had this cooking on the back burners for quite some time.

IMO, I much preferred having this done under the executive's war powers, as the more ambiguous nature of hte executive's power made GWB's admin more tenative in its use of them in this circumstance. This legislation will codify as Congress's will that the executive has not only the power GWB claimed under executive authority to try illegal enemy combatants, it will broaden the executive's power and make it d@mn difficult for SCOTUS to rule unfavorably on any of it, since two branches of gov't are on record in favor.

So, thanks to the whiners, the power and scope of the executive will grow and be codified in law.

What a bunch of whiney tools.
 
Under the proposed procedures, defendants would lack rights to confront accusers, exclude hearsay accusations, or bar evidence obtained through rough or coercive interrogations. They would not be guaranteed a public or speedy trial and would lack the right to choose their military counsel, who in turn would not be guaranteed equal access to evidence held by prosecutors.

Detainees would also not be guaranteed the right to be present at their own trials, if their absence is deemed necessary to protect national security or individuals.

This is some scarey stuff!! This takes MOST of the BOR and flushes it. All they gotta do is say they think your are a terrorist and *wham* your rights be damned. I don't care about the rights of a guy they pull off a foreign battle field I worry about people they pickup on american soil. If someone so much as tells them that you were looking for bomb making materials that heresay would be evidence!! Don't PO your neighbors or else a phone call to Homeboy Security could make you disappear forever. No one would even know if you actually got a trial, not even you!!

To secure a death penalty under the draft legislation, at least five jurors must agree, two fewer than under the administration's earlier plan. Courts-martial and federal civilian trials require that 12 jurors agree.
Super secret trials you can't even attend and all you have is their word that the jury said to execute you!!

A draft Bush administration plan for special military courts seeks to expand the reach and authority of such "commissions" to include trials, for the first time, of people who are not members of al-Qaeda or the Taliban and are not directly involved in acts of international terrorism, according to officials familiar with the proposal.
New game, Seven steps to Osama BIn Laden
 
The typical Ann Coulter/Rush Limbaugh/average American idiot syllogism is this:

"If you are a terrorist, you don't deserve any rights.

George Bush & Co. say you are terrorist.

Therefore you don't deserve any rights."

There are a lot problems with this formulation, obviously.

First, while terrorists may not "deserve" rights, our actions are not just about them--they are about US. The supposed glory of this country is that we try to hold ourselves to higher standards than our adversaries--we are not content to wallow in the pit of barbarism that that they embrace. This was true in WW2--truly a war of national survival if there ever was one, and it should be true today.

Second, today's apologists for this crap seem to take great comfort in the fact that it is good ol' Jesus-loving George Bush running show. They have tossed the concept of "a government of laws, not men" right out on its ass for this clown. And when President Hillary or Gore or whomever they despise gets in (and such a person WILL get in, the pendulum ALWAYS shifts--4 years after Reagan we had Clinton I for God's sake), they will scream like stuck pigs at the "abuses of power" they perpetrate. But it will be too late, thanks to all the laws and precendents firmly established by their great and brave hero, George W. Dimbulb.

I fear for my country, and truly despise those creeps who enable what is happening. Most of all, I am sickened by the fact that it is being done by people who should know better. I don't expect liberals to hold the rule of law and to embrace limited government power. That a good portion of many so-called "conservatives" have turned out to be utter frauds and the easily persuaded authoritarians that their critics always accused them of secretly being disgusts me to the core. I'd trade the entire lot of them for someone that was a fraction of Barry Goldwater.
 
Jfruser, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say? Are you saying that because some of us put up a fight when GWB tried to grab some dictatorial powers we are somehow responsible for his trying to grab even greater dictatorial powers? Because we wouldn't accept some tyranny we now have to accept even more tyranny?

Does anyone still doubt that the goal of the Bush administration is to assume dictatorial powers? Can anyone in his or her right mind defend this tyrannical legislation?
 
What the whiners & "it's all about US" types refuse to grasp is that these folks that GWB & Co. wanted to send before military tribunals, were liable to be shot out of hand according to the treaties we have signed.

See, there is supposed to be some sort of consequence to dissuade folks from deliberately killing civilians & other such actions that classify one as an illegal combatant.

We would be within our rights and within the laws of war as codified in the accords and treaties we signed, to take these oxygen thieves out back and killing them at our pleasure. Without a lawyer, tribunal, trial, or a fare-thee-well in the next life.

Now that Hamdan came down, the effort to seek some reasonable way to dispose of enemy combatants will broaden the power & scope of gov't power and will be codified into law. Thanks for all your efforts. :cuss:
 
Don't you understand that when the government suspends its moral values when dealing certain groups of people, it is a slippery slope to expanding that suspension of moral values to include other groups of people (such as gun owners, militia members, etc.)? If anything, this proves that the administration wants to expand that suspension of moral values, which is what we feared all along.
 
jfruser--

What you fail to grasp is that nothing they propose is limited to "illegal combatants" on a "battlefield" in a "war" (funny how Presidents supposedly no longer need declarations of war according their apologists, but their apologists are quick to declare one when it is convenient for them). Your soapbox rantings are appropos of nothing when it comes to the concerns we have expressed here .

Beyond that, as a practical matter, the folks you have focused on don't usually get taken "prisoner"--that is reality we all understand. Things get done on the battlefield to such types, and that is that.

But once you take prisoners, you have deal with them as such. When you remove them from the immediacy and urgencies of the battlefield, you just can't do whatever the hell you want with them (query: could we use them for Eichmann-like medical experiments if we choose--if not, why not? Don't just tell me you wouldn't--tell me what legal principles prevent you from doing so.)
 
jfruser, just how evil do we have to become and how heavy our chains before you will feel safe?
 
If anything, this proves that the administration wants to expand that suspension of moral values, which is what we feared all along.

I'm with you there, but take exception to the notion that these problems are confined to "this administration", vs. most of Congress, which has so far passed the offending bills with overwhelming majorities, and past administrations as well as this one. I don't think that simply drinking Pepsi vs. Coke will keep us from getting cavities.
 
jfruser, I have to disagree with your analysis here.

There were serious problems with the military tribunals in Hamdan - for one, they didn't live up to even the standards established for military tribunals under the UCMJ. Hamdan was not just going to get less due process than what he would have received in a civilian court - he was going to be flat out railroaded.

I'd agree that once the Court reached the conclusion that the military tribunals did not meet UCMJ standards, they had all the information they needed to reach a decision and they went further than they should have in interpreting whether the Hague accords should cover Hamdan.

In any case, I find it hard to hold those who opposed the U.S. setting up meaningless kangaroo courts to "try" alleged terrorists responsible for an even greater power grab by the current administration. I also disagree with you about its likelihood for success. The administration still has a number of approaches it can try short of this proposed legislation (like giving the terrorists a trial that meets UCMJ standards for example) and Congress isn't about to sign off on something like this - especially if they start taking heat from their constituents.
 
Armed Bear, you're absolutely correct. I didn't mean to imply that it was just the administration. I only used them as the reference point since the topic of this thread is the administration's proposed expansion of what I see as tyranny.

I've never been more fed up with a congress than I am with this one. Of course that might change if the current wave of revulsion toward the administration and congress leads to a bunch of moonbats sweeping into congress next year. You should check out the Diane-Feinstein clone the Democrats are running for Senate in Minnesota--Amy Kloubachar. She's likely to win, given the mood in this state right now and the fact that the Republicans are running a Bush toady against her in a state that would probably vote to burn Bush at the stake if the option was on the ballot. You may not have heard of her yet, but if she goes to the Senate I guarantee you will become infinitely familiar with her because she'll float straight to the top of the Democratic anti-2A scum pond.
 
Well, LB, you've put your finger on the problem, I think.

Let's just say that 99.9% of the people around here who rail against Bush and Republicans are the strongest supporters of our Senators Feinstein and Boxer, as well as the likes of Kerry and the Clintons.

Anyone who says they support those people in the name of our individual rights is either uninformed, insane, or lying.
 
LB--

You bring up a good issue, if somewhat off-topic.

When Clinton & Co. left town, we were told by the Bushies that "the grown-ups were back in charge." If these group of bumbling, authoritarian fools are the "grown-ups", were are in deeper doo-doo than most realize.

We are set up for a counter-reaction to these folks, which is likely to sweep into office some people with whom I have MAJOR problems, particularly on 2A issues. And some of the blame for that belongs to gun rights advocates who have supported this clown ONLY because of the alleged "support" we've gotten from this administration on 2A issues--while they flush the rest of the Constitution down the fricking tubes. The NRA is a great example--yeah, Kerry needed to be taken down, no question. But their slobbering embrace of Bush has been disgusting. Somebody like a Bob Barr or Ron Paul, on the other hand, have gotten it right--fight the gun grabbers on the left, but give no quarter to the power grabbers on the right, either.

Embracing and excusing Bush as the lesser of two evils has been a disaster for the Constitution, this country generally, and to the genuine conservative cause.
 
Let's just say that 99.9% of the people around here who rail against Bush and Republicans are the strongest supporters of our Senators Feinstein and Boxer, as well as the likes of Kerry and the Clintons.

This is absolute bullcrap.

If this is the best argument conservatives can come up with to defend Bush & Co., the movement is dead from the neck up.
 
Getting back on topic, does anyone see this proposed expansion of judicial powers to Kafka-esque levels as anything other than the single biggest threat to the Constitution in our country's history?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top