Continuing the "friend or foe" discussion

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Lets start telling people that ANY TIME a person is in uniform, they should question it. They should call 911, call the pentagon, CIA, the Associated Press, and the Interpol, and try to figure out if for sure this person is a police officer. In fact, people should carry around biometric readers in their wallets that prove you are a police officer? I don't get it...
I once had to serve a Writ of Possession (eviction) on some really difficult people. They fought the eviction from day one. On the chosen day, I had a couple of uniformed deputy sheriffs with me. They refused to open the door.

The biggest deputy was authorized to kick in the door as I did not want to put an unarmed locksmith in front of the door. When we gained entry, the residents were on the phone to the police department, screaming that their home was being invaded. Anticipating this, I had already called the police department beforehand and told them what the Sheriff was doing at that address.

It was rather humorous to hear the police tell the residents, "It's Ok, they're really sheriff's deputies."

Pilgrim
 
Let me say this up front. I have never believed, nor shall I, that LEO's are above the law. If I was inclined to share my real name with you, you could look up the cases where I have prosecuted officers, and more importantly where I have been cited for traffic offenses and plead to the actual citation (no plea bargain) depite actually being an LEO. I believe, as does my boss, that an LEO who commits a crime should actually be punished more severly than the average person, because of their position as an LEO.

So, if a cop screws up and raids the wrong house due to his recklessness or negligence, line him up for trial. But, don't take a useful tool away from the officers who actually follow the law.

Right now, to get a search warrant in this jurisdiction, a cop must present his case to a prosecutor for review before a judge will even consider it. By policy, we require the actual investigating officer to be the affiant. And, the affiant must have personal knowledge of the location to be searched. As further protection against these problems, we require a physical description of the location to be included in the warrant and supporting affidavit. And, the affiant must participate in serving the warrant. Why so much? To minimize the risk of an innocent loation being subject to a search warrant.

Perhaps I'm being naive due to the circumstances we have here. But I cannot help but see an interesting parallel here. We would all agree that the vast majority of gun owners are good people who do not commit criminal acts with their guns. Yet, when someone does use a gun for a criminal act, teh gun control people seek to ban them all. We would also agree that there are some instances of police screwing up with no knock warrants, which (you may have to trust me on this) make up a small percentage of the no-knock warrants which are executed, yet many seek to ban them all.
 
I totally agree that identification that is comfortable to YOU should be in order. That may mean calling 911 to confirm but if the warrant is real (and probably mistaken in our case), the boys may not want to wait and forcible entry may come next. Now what do you do?

This may sound simplistic but if you requested to see a police car or even an unmarked "light-up", it would provide a stronger case on the side of legitimacy. I doubt that bad guys would go to the point of having a full set up like that.

That may be an alternative to making them wait while you make the call. Just a thought.
 
We would all agree that the vast majority of gun owners are good people who do not commit criminal acts with their guns. Yet, when someone does use a gun for a criminal act, teh gun control people seek to ban them all. We would also agree that there are some instances of police screwing up with no knock warrants, which (you may have to trust me on this) make up a small percentage of the no-knock warrants which are executed, yet many seek to ban them all.
Sorry, but that's not an equivalent comparison between an inert piece of property and a violent aggressive act. I can visualize situations where the latter might be necessary (hostage situation, escaped fugitive, etc) but never just to preserve drug evidence (as a number of LEO members have in the past stated as a legitimate reason for "no-knocks").

The fact is that "no-knocks" on wrong addresses do occur, even if rare. Heck, home invasions of any sort are pretty rare (other than mice and termites;) ) but most of us are still prepared for that possibility.

Sometimes even the "right" address (as listed on the warrant) can be the "wrong" address in reality, due to misinformation or incorrect assumptions (as evidenced by some of the cases cited by another poster). It may not happen in your jurisdiction, but it still does happen.:(
 
I don't mind no-knocks (or outright shooting to stop and, incidentally, kill the perp) BUT only for hostage situations and similar instances.
 
Okay, we may be talking apples and oranges here, so to speak, In Ohio, we have three types of search warrants. Daytime warrants, which only require P.C. as to the presence of contraband or evidence, and may be served only during daytime hours. Nighttime warrants, which require the P.C. plus reasonable cause to believe that the evidence would be destroyed or contaminated by delay. Then there are the no-knock warrants, which require not only P.C., but reasonable cause to believe that the execution of the warrant poses a significant threat to the safety of any person executing the warrant. There are a whole list of requirements regarding how one seeks a no-knock warrant, what evidence must be presented to the issueing judge, and additional verification of the address.

Based on Oleg's last posting, I presume that in some places, the risk to the evidence justifies the no-knock warrant. Here, it's all about officer safety. Risk to the evidence doesn't do anything but get me a knock warrant after dark.
 
taliv said:
just to clarify...

police are here to protect us, not the other way around....



Actually,the United States government owes a duty to protect the public in general, but owes no legal duty to protect any particular person. Exceptions to the no-duty rule apply when the police have expressly promised to protect a specific person from an identifiable danger.


Since you are forced to protect yourself from crime, and no-knocks in some cases cannot be distinguished from criminal attacks, should you be prosecuted if you make a mistaken identification? I guess that is a case-by-case determination.
 
Now isn't that an interesting thought. On trial for shooting officer, and evidence is that officer had no significant identification showing, or something similar. Can mistaken identification be a defense? Would a reasonable person in that position feel endgangered by an armed man breaking into his home in the darkness of night, screaming and brandishing a weapon? For those of us who do not lead criminal lives, we would not expect it to be LEO's coming through the door.

What an interesting thought. Prior record would show that you've never been arrested/convicted of a crime. You're home with a family. You work a legal occupation. You legally own the gun. You're in your nightclothes (if dressed). Assuming truth in testimony and honest police work/prosecution (no jokes :D ), it would be interesting to see what a jury would do. may just acquit, or at leat hang.
 
Good poster.

I think that there is a good case to be made for no knock warrants.


IN NAZI GERMANY.


Let's put the shoe on the other foot

As an LEO, if you raid the wrong house, you won't mind then if a group of angry neighborhood citizens follows you home, busts down your door and holds you at gun point just to be sure it was _you_ who raided the wrong house?

Of course, they won't kill you, or your family, because they're good citizens, only wanting to teach a lesson to a wrongdoer... but you and your family won't know that, will you?


For some perspective, we should ask the Branch Davidians about this topic...
 
CAS700850 said:
So, if a cop screws up and raids the wrong house due to his recklessness or negligence, line him up for trial. But, don't take a useful tool away from the officers who actually follow the law.


The big question though is, if someone busts my door down in the middle of the night, how do I know he is a cop and not a gang banger?(And yes, bangers have done similar entries nearby recently.)

So if I respond as if it is a gangbanger, and shoot the intruder, then I get charged with murder for killing an officer, even if they made the mistake and broke down the door of the wrong house.

Thats if the other officers don't shoot and kill me first.

Prosecuting the officer who broke down my door won't matter since I will be dead or rotting in jail.

I.G.B.
 
Am I the only one who..........

Thinks that right or wrong...if it happens to you.......

Here is what I think is going to happen. People come barging in your front door. They are screaming and yelling "DOWN POLICE SEARCH WARRANT DOWN DONT MOVE DONT MOVE DOWN POLICE POLICE DONT MOVE............."

Ok, so you have 2 options. 1 is that you dont have time to even wake up, or just plain react even if you are awake, so you end up on the floor handcuffed and you have to hope if it is the police that they figure out that they made a mistake. If it isnt the police, your SCREWED..period. 2 is that you have time to react and you attempt to protect yourself, you open fire at the hostile forces....now, if its not the police, you have a chance, a good chance I think, that the invaders are going to turn tale and leave as quickly as possible. If it is the police, you are going to be DEAD. 4+ officers geared up to serve a no-knock have someone shooting at them, oh yeah...your in BIG trouble.

So, who knows....I just have to believe that living a life as an honest citizen will give me the best odds of just that...living. If I have time, I have, and will use my guns to protect myself and loved ones, and stop any threat that threatens us. I can only hope I survive the outcome if it happens.

my .02 cents
 
I think Oleg and I are particularly sensitive to this no-knock issue because of a tragic incident just a few months ago over in the next county.

Their SWAT team (and I use the term very loosely) broke into the wrong home and killed an elderly man who had grabbed a shotgun to protect his family.

A rare incident, I'm sure, but it happened close to home and it sure makes you think.

The argument, once again, isn't about whether it should ever be done but rather when it is a justified police action. Don't think cop bashing was ever intended at all.

Gentleman ... as you were.
 
A few of these happening:

Arizona Department of Public Safety - page 7:
http://www.azdps.gov/digest/DataFile.asp?FileID=221

Las Vegas -Third Story Down
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2000/Dec-15-Fri-2000/news/15043076.html

Partial Story from San Diego:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1993/is_200211/ai_n7275779


Oh, and Canada too (I found quite a few from Canada):
http://www.nsnews.com/issues00/w041700/focus.html

There were also a few reported in Dallas, Texas this year I believe, I cannot find the links right now though. Add those to the others already listed in this thread.

As for the so-called "moral duty to verify your target":

To me, that's moral duty #2, #1 is to meet force with force and try to survive and protect my loved ones. When in doubt, there is no doubt. Bashing my door in at any hour, uninvited, verifies you as a real and credible threat in my mind. I will shoot. My friends and family know better than to play a prank like that on me, and I know better than to do it to them either. If you come through my door uninvited, there will be gunfire.

Add weapons and multiple people yelling and rushing in, that multiplies the level of threat I will perceive.


Great poster Oleg.
 
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RandyC said:
I think Oleg and I are particularly sensitive to this no-knock issue because of a tragic incident just a few months ago over in the next county.

Their SWAT team (and I use the term very loosely) broke into the wrong home and killed an elderly man who had grabbed a shotgun to protect his family.

A rare incident, I'm sure, but it happened close to home and it sure makes you think.

The argument, once again, isn't about whether it should ever be done but rather when it is a justified police action. Don't think cop bashing was ever intended at all.

Gentleman ... as you were.

I thought it was a year or so ago and it was found that the cops said it was a gun, but it was actually a cane. Or is that a different case?
 
Can't see picture

:cuss:

For some reason every time I check out an Oleg thread there's no picture. Is there anyone who can help me out with this?
 
Thanks Cosine, but I've go that checked and it still doesn't work. I can see other people's pictures when they attach them, but for some reason Oleg's never show up.

I apologize for hi-jacking the thread for technical babysitting.
 
The extra large hole in the front of that shotgun removes my burden. I'm no criminal I go to work and live a moderately low cost life. Like I say to my aunt's husband whenever he starts busting my chops "If you were in jail this or that"(he was locked up). I say I work all day I have a little car I have 2 kayaks and my idea of a good time is either going to the range or getting chased by sharks. Only a total fool would look at me and the way I live and say that guy is a drug dealer(I'm not). So if someone is kicks in my door they will be shot by whatever happens to be on HD that night. Because there is absolutely no reason for the SWAT team to show up at my house unless I'm calling the police to shut up my really loud neighbors. C'mon wake up unless your selling drugs out of your house would you really think some clown busting the door is a cop. And your making me look like I was wrong saying this poster is meant for people in condition white or are you in condition white.

Hey Oleg you might want to change gangbanger to criminal. Gangbangers are less likely to look like the average joe.

Oh BTW when I was in high school a long time ago and I would get into a fight (bad part of NJ) I would haul butt to the nearest library clean up and stick my face in a book. I only got caught once because the other kid ratted me out. I'm no bully I never started it.
 
Ody, a homeowner won't have an opportunity to

odysseus said:
Exactly. There is no opportunity to check ID's and look at a warrant when someone is bursting through your door/windows with a rifle pointed at you and your family. :uhoh:


BTW Oleg, that's a good one.

examine the warrant and check IDs on just about any warrant, knock-and-announce or no-knock. This is going to rile some of you guys up but we don't ask for permission when we have a warrant. We make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants. I've had subjects want to stand in the doorway and argue with us or demand to read the warrant before letting us in the house and they all were quickly controlled and cuffed. Some got arrested for interferring with the execution of the warrant.

A search warrant is an order from a judge to the executing officers to go and search a place, not to go and please beg the owner's permission, may we please, if it's not too much trouble, pretty please, tear your house apart looking for dope, body parts, kiddie porn, etc.

If this is a concern for some members on this board, please do not engage in any criminal activity and you probably won't have to worry about the cops searching your house! Sheesh! If you are an innocent person and that cops in your town hit the wrong houses frequently enough for you to spend one second worrying about this issue, you need to move.:rolleyes: The number of actual no-knock warrants that are executed is very small. The number of wrong houses hit is very small. The odds of executing a no-knock on the wrong house are miniscule. I would spend more time planning how you are going to spend the lottery winnings or worrying about getting hit by lightning that worrying about this.

Great photography and layouts on the posters, by the way. I just think that the effort is misdirected.

Take care,

JY
 
Working Man said:
Anyone remember hearing about the group of 8 in Dallas last year that claimed
to be Police/SWAT, gained access to the home, and smacked a grandmother
around with a shotgun? I believe their shirts said either SWAT or Police in bold
white print and they had caps with shield emblems on them.

I recall reading of a similar incident in Houston. The perps claimed to be cops, busted in the doors like an entry team, and murdered all family members present including an elderly man in a wheelchair.
 
I don't see how the SWAT ballcap removes my moral burden to identify my target before shooting.
Neither do I see how the SWAT ballcap removes the officers' moral duty to identify their target before entering.

Here's another point to consider:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181251,00.html
Awaken Woozy? Study Likens Morning Grogginess to Intoxication
Wednesday, January 11, 2006
By Miranda Hitti


Got a decent amount of sleep last night? Even so, your mental skills still might not have been all that sharp first thing this morning.

It’s that woozy time when your eyes are open, but you’re not exactly alert. All things being equal, you might rather roll over and hit the snooze button than put your feet on the floor and start the day. According to a new study, your brain's ability to function during those first waking moments may be as impaired as if you'd been drinking.

Sleep experts call that feeling “sleep inertia.” Everyone else calls it grogginess. Now, a small new study shows it’s far from your brain’s finest hour.

The brief report, published as a research letter in The Journal of the American Medical Association, comes from researchers including Kevin Wright, PhD, of the Sleep and Chronobiology Laboratory at the University of Colorado at Boulder.

“For a short period, at least, the effects of sleep inertia may be as bad as or worse than being legally drunk,” Wright says in a news release.

How Much Sleep Do You Really Need?
Wake-Up Call

Wright’s small study included eight men and one woman. They were about 29 years old, on average, and were paid for their participation.

None had sleep disorders. They also hadn’t recently crossed time zones or done shift work.

For three weeks, participants got eight hours of nightly sleep at home. They also avoided alcohol, medications, nicotine, recreational drugs, and caffeine during that time.

Next, participants spent a week at a sleep lab. For the first six nights, they got eight hours of sleep following their normal bedtimes.

During the days, participants spent some time adding double-digit numbers together. They weren’t just killing time. That adding skill was supposed to come in handy later on.

Sleep Drugs: None Stands Out as Best

Pop Quiz

After the sixth night at the lab, participants were woken up after eight hours of sleep. Immediately, they took an adding test.

There was no hemming and hawing, no dawdling over coffee or the newspaper. Instead, the day started abruptly, with the math test starting within seconds of waking.

Participants fumbled and stumbled through the test, performing much worse than usual. After about 20 minutes to an hour, their performance was closer to normal.

Then, participants were kept up for 26 hours straight at the lab. Right afterward, they took another addition test. Math scores were better after the all-nighter than immediately after eight hours of sleep.

“These were very healthy people who had performed the test hundreds of times, making the results even more profound,” Wright says in the news release.

What Kind of Sleeper Are You?

Grogginess Like Drunkenness

Other researchers have equated sleep inertia, or morning grogginess, to being drunk, write Wright and colleagues.

Many people can delay mental challenges for a few minutes while their brains get up to speed.

But some people, like doctors, soldiers, and emergency workers, have to be ready to go at a moment’s notice, Wright’s team notes.

The adding test challenged short-term memory, counting skills, and speedy thinking. The brain’s prefrontal cortex handles those skills, along with problem solving, complex thinking, and emotions.

In short, workers who must be at the top of their game at the drop of a hat can’t afford a groggy prefrontal cortex.

Sleep Dos & Don'ts

Give Me a Moment … or More?

Sleep inertia doesn’t last long, with “severe” performance problems lasting three minutes, write the researchers.

They note that in other studies, “severe” performance problems have lasted up to 10 minutes, with detectable glitches present for at least two hours after waking.

Their study was small, and people don’t normally do math first thing in the morning, so the researchers call for more studies of sleep inertia.

The goal: Learn how bad it really is and how to handle those morning moments when duty calls but the brain can’t quite keep up.

By Miranda Hitti, reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

SOURCES: Wertz, A. The Journal of the American Medical Association, Jan. 11, 2006; vol 295: pp 163-164. News release, University of Colorado at Boulder.
"Severe" performance problems for the first three minutes. If somebody's breaking into my house, I figure I have about three seconds from the time he comes into view until he shoots, especially if he sees that I'm armed. What am I to do?
 
Not many people are detained without trial lately, either...just a few so far. But many of us think this is a trend and that it needs to be nipped in the bud.

There are three ways to nip it:

1.change the laws -- slow and uncertain, untimately preferable

2.shoot cops who kick in doors -- undesirable for both cops and residents, for obvious reasons

3.convince cops not to kick in doors -- a stop-gap solution, but necessary while the laws are being changed
 
Doesn't happen often?

Then why are there a dozen links to different instances posted here on this thread? If I as a law abiding homeowner have to worry about sorting the good from the bad in the middle of a 3:00 A.M. gunfight, the police are not doing their jobs. Nor are the judges approving the warrants, the prosecutors compiling paperwork, etc. I fail to see how a warrant can go from observation of address XYZ to a botched invasion of innocent mans home ABC next door without gross negligence. But it has happened and will continue to happen until the S really hits the F when a four or six man team are all killed by a "oops, wrong house" prepared homeowner.
 
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