Conversion cylinders and the law hypothetical question

[Tallbald]

I see beautiful reproduction percussion revolvers (sorry I do not know all the correct year/model designations), some, with reproduction detachable shoulder stocks. Wonderful combinations, and I'd love to have a set one day when finances permit. I think it would a be fun and accurate combination and a delight for perhaps small game hunts. Not really practical many will say, but just plain nifty to play with and enjoy.
My question is this though. Some of those same reproduction revolvers can be fitted with conversion cylinders that let a person shoot low pressure fixed cartridge "cowboy" loads as most here know. Is it OK though to own a shoulder stocked percussion revolver at the same time you possess or own a conversion cylinder for the same gun? Or is that the grey-area "constructive intent" (to have a "short barreled rifle")?
Long ago I read about a big name single shot pistol maker who had to challenge a law when they marketed an accessory shoulder stock in a kit which came with a 16 inch barrel. As supplied, the kit when installed made a nice little carbine, but if you only installed the shoulder stock, leaving the pistol length barrel on the frame you had an NFA regulated short barreled rifle. I still see the kits for sale. Kinda the same situation I suppose, but I'd hate to have to be the one to foot the legal bill in a court challenge.
DOn't know if this has come up before, so moderators please delete if you see the need.
Thanks as always. Don

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

It is my understanding that cap and ball repro revolvers with typical barrel lengths of 7-8" even 12" barrel length and detachable shoulder stocks are acceptable per federal and most state laws. I take cb combos like this to Texas gun shows all the time for trading purposes and LEOs at the door dont give them a second look. The situation May be different depending on your state and local laws. However if you change out the cylinder with a cartridge conversion and the barrel is less than 16" on your revolver AND you use a stock, it becomes an SBR, with all that entails regulation-wise.
Others on this Forum May have more accurate thoughts.

 

[CraigC]

Since the settlement with Thompson/Center, I don't think the constructive intent is much of an issue any more. You surely do not want to get caught with a cartridge conversion wearing a shoulder stock and a barrel shorter than 16" without an SBR stamp.

 

[tpelle]

Don't know about the combination of the conversion cylinder plus the shoulder stock together.

However, if you should acquire a percussion and the conversion cylinder to go with it, should you ever sell the revolver, you must put the percussion cylinder back in it.

It's OK to transfer the percussion revolver and the conversion cylinder to the same party...you just can't have the conversion cylinder IN the percussion revolver.

 

[dogrunner]

What law are you talking about? That gun is legal property and there is NO law prohibiting the transfer of such if one is abiding by the law in one's jurisdiction!

 

[Willie Sutton]

"However, if you should acquire a percussion and the conversion cylinder to go with it, should you ever sell the revolver, you must put the percussion cylinder back in it."


No.

1: When you install the cylinder, YOU are the manufacturer of the firearm. There's no law against selling a firearm so manufactured, as long as you don't make a business out of it.

so:

2: If you leave the conversion cylinder installed you need to follow the federal rules for transfer of a firearm (which is exactly what it is when the conversion cylinder is installed).

BUT:

3: If you remove it, you can sell it without any federal firearms laws applying to the transfer.

AND

4: You can sell the cylinder aong with the revolver to the same person without any federal laws involved, as long as it's not installed. When it's removed you don't have a firearm to transfer under the definitions set forth by federal law. Witness that you can order a cap and ball revolver and a conversion cylinder at the same time from any of the suppliers, have them shopped together, and only when YOU assemble the combination has a firearm been manufactured.


State Laws vary. This above all speaks to federal firearms law.



Willie

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[tpelle]

You all are correct, of course. I wasn't clear in my previous reply - blame it on just typing a quick response during a break at work.

What I was thinking about was shipping the gun interstate. A percussion revolver, not being considered a "firearm" for shipping purposes is OK to ship, whereas if you install the percussion cylinder you have "manufactured" a firearm and have to go through an FFL.

 

[Crawdad1]

Aren't they classified and defined under primitive weapons like a knife or a bow?

 

[CraigC]

They’re considered and defined as a primitive weapon and in the same category as a knife, a bow or a spear.

When you install the conversion cylinder it becomes a modern "firearm" and all laws apply.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

This, and you are the manufacturer.


"What I was thinking about was shipping the gun interstate. A percussion revolver, not being considered a "firearm" for shipping purposes is OK to ship, whereas if you install the percussion cylinder you have "manufactured" a firearm and have to go through an FFL"


Noting that it's a reversible conversion and you can just as simply de-manufacture it as well, at which time the federal laws regarding transfer of firearms don't apply any longer. The conversion cylinder can be in the same box, and you still don't have a firearm.



Willie

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[Flashbak]

Was talking with a few folks at the crossroads gun show today.

1) Cap n Ball with a conversion cylinder (non gated) can be sold or transferred as long as the original cylinder is in place depending on local restrictions (Illinois and New Jersey I think restrict them).

2) Cap n Ball with conversion cylinder-gated, where the gun must be modified requires remanufacture paperwork when sold or transferred, and at that time must be registered.

3) Open top production conversions such as the 1872 Open Tops etc are considered normal firearms and must be registered and are subject to the 10 day waiting period etc etc.

Side note, some places now require you to register in order to buy ammunition. Not round ball and powder, but cartridges.

This of course is all depending on local restrictions.

 

[JRH6856]

I guess it does depend on local restrictions. I've never registered a gun in my life.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"Was talking with a few folks at the crossroads gun show today"

Which would be where? This question asked because some of the answer you posted are not the case in most of the states of our republic.


"1) Cap n Ball with a conversion cylinder (non gated) can be sold or transferred as long as the original cylinder is in place depending on local restrictions (Illinois and New Jersey I think restrict them)".

That's because they are not firearms as defined by federal law, but MAY be "firearms" as defined by (very few) state laws. GENERALLY States do not treat them as firearms for the purpose of purchase and sale. New Jersey is an exception to the rule.



"2) Cap n Ball with conversion cylinder-gated, where the gun must be modified requires remanufacture paperwork when sold or transferred, and at that time must be registered."


This is nonsense (at the level of federal law):

For anything YOU manufacture by installation of a conversion cylinder, federal law considers them to be a firearm is the conversion parts are installed, and not a firearm if they are not. There is no requirement under federal law to register home-manufactured firearms, and they can be sold as long as you are not engaging in series manufacture. And you can remove a gated conversion, reinstall a cap and ball cylinder, and even if the frame has been notched you still don't have a firearm as defined by federal law.


"3) Open top production conversions such as the 1872 Open Tops etc are considered normal firearms and must be registered and are subject to the 10 day waiting period etc etc."

Factory produced cartridge arms are firearms under federal law and as such are FFL purchase if purchased from a dealer.

And "what 10 day waiting period"? Ain't no such thing here....



Willie

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