Convience Store Redux-Better Info Guys

[Skittlesman7062]

Hey All,


Thanks for all the responses, and i apologize for my post eliciting some not so respectful discussion from some people, but for those that showed respect thank you. Ive decided to revisit the situation, except this time with a drawn up layout and many more details, to see if we can see what we would actually do. Here are the details:

*Civilians Present:2
*Clerks Present: 1
*Perps Present: 1, Armed with handgun.
*There are no accomplices to the perp waiting outside, after a quick scan, perp is acting alone.
*Display Racks are all chest height.
*There are three doors, one main door, which the perp is standing near, a door to the left of the counter that leads to a back managers office, and the door leading to the back beer cooler, for restocking purposes.
*From quick assessment, perp seems to be agitated, threating the clerk, and severly on edge.
*Other civilians in the store hit the floor at the first glimpse of the gun, perp keeps glancing around, eventually he will notice you there.



What would you do in this situation? Would you feel that the clerks, and everyone elses life in the store was in danger, including your own? Would you shoot? Would you Hide and hope he doesnt see you or do anything rash? Thoughts?



Thanks,

Skittlesman

P.S. Thank you JeffWhite for the encouragement.

 

[Treo]

Honestly , I still think drawing against a gun in the hand is BAAAAD JU-JU. I would get behind cover for sure, I definitely wouldn't play hero, One thing I think we tend to over look here is the fear factor, if I was in this situation I'd be scared to death and that would affect my motor skills. I've confronted badguys over a gun twice in my life, both times my vision went bad on me I couldn't breathe & I was sweating like a pig. If I was any farther away then 10 yards I really don't think I'd risk it

Of course if dude starts shooting all bets are off, I'm at least gonna try.

And I still haven't changed my opinion on trying to apprehend the guy, if I get involved at all I'm going to try to take him out.

 

[theken206]

"And I still haven't changed my opinion on trying to apprehend the guy, if I get involved at all I'm going to try to take him out."

agreed, all or nothing if my own life is involved

 

[Fred Fuller]

The problem with all "what if" scenario propositions is that anyone coming into the scenario from outside the mind of the person who conceived it, simply cannot know all the variables involved.

For example, I watched surveillance video of a convenience store "robbery" not long ago where it was THE CLERK who pocketed most of the money from the register. How can you know who's involved in an apparent holdup and who's not? What's set up in advance and what's not? How can you know who knows who and has colluded in advance? YOU CAN'T.

Granted, genuine criminal genius is not going to settle for ripping off convenience stores, but many thugs evidence a great deal of what might be called low cunning. It does not pay to underestimate your adversary, even in a convenience store holdup.

I will tell everyone this, here and now- given responses to and conduct on recent scenario threads, I'm getting very close to regarding them with the same jaundiced eye I cast upon SHTF threads.

For the time being, if scenario threads are 'kept real' (that is, not utter flights of improbable fancy), are well thought out in the original post and foster good useful discussion, they'll live. Anything that fails to meet that standard is likely to disappear. And with enough subsequent abuse, the entire genre is apt to get roundfiled with no further consideration.

Fair enough?

lpl/nc

 

[K5mitch]

Most CS have all-glass fronts. Even a decision to shoot would be hard to justify due to lack of backstop. How many people are out at the pumps?

My gut says to stay down, possibly moving one more aisle away to put more barrier material between me and BG, try to find a position to observe, and encourage other customers to remain hidden.

Lee Lapin brings up more good points, but I assume in the OP's scenario the clerk is not "in on it".

 

[GEM]

I'll play with comments:

1. You can just shoot the guy. You are justified in a lot of jurisdictions to act this without a challenge. But:

a. You may miss
b. You may hit without a disabling effect and then be in a gun fight

2 You can challenge.

a. He gives up
b. You are in a gun fight.

The implicit assumption in many scenarios is that one of these two happens:

1. You shoot effectively
2. The guy gives up

In lots of FOF, I've seen it all.

What is your goal:

1. Be a hero for the later adulation of the crowd. An egotistic ninja fantasy
2. Truly save the clerk in pure altruism with no consideration of risk to your life. All negative consequences we talk about are worth it.
3. Even if things go badly, your actions serve as deterrent to further crime
4. YOU come out OK - whatever happens to others - c'est le guerre. You care about yourself and your responsibility to family.

You need to be very honest about your end goal.

Now, what do I think are my choice:

I go for:

1. Shoot him

or

2. Avoid, Escape.

Why - I've seen the challenge become a gun fight and been on both sides of it and hit by sims or airsoft. Thus, the gun fight went awry. If the gun is out in a clear lethal force situation, then it's shooting time. If it's not clear - keep your head down. However, my read on immediately shooting really depends if I think the situation is going to violent - not just a give me the cash and dash robbery.

Avoid - I got people to take care who would have significantly poorly lives without me. Coldly self interested. Also, I like my life at the moment. Adulation means crap to me. Too old for young groupies. Also, I've seen literature on adulation junkies who have gone nutsy after a critical incident.

 

[doc540]

In the event I was present in a convenience store while carrying during a robbery, the first thing I would do was remember that I hadn't run my mouth on a public, online forum and feel good that I hadn't created any more liabilities for myself than the robbery situation itself was creating.

 

[XDKingslayer]

You need to be very honest about your end goal.

I watched a show yesterday about the Navy shooting down that disabled spy satellite back in Feb. 2008 due to it's toxic fuel tank. One of the top ranking Marines in the shoot down was talking about people critical of them shooting down the satellite.

He said if that satellite fell into a populated area the toxic fuel left in the tank would cause innocent deaths. How could he look at himself in the mirror knowing he could have prevented those deaths by shooting that satellite down, yet he chose to simply do nothing.

That is why I'll never agree with running out the back door like a coward when other people's lives are still at risk. I can't do that. Maybe it's the Marine coming out in me, but I couldn't look at myself in that mirror either.

The evil Marine in me says "Is the door to the beer cooler unsecured"?

 

[GEM]

Some folks think the SM-3 shot on the satellite was really a counter to the previous Chinese anti-satellite shot.

So what was the real motive?

If you look at an altruistic action - there's a list of about 20 factors that go in the decision. Gun lists like to oversimplify with chest pounding.

 

[ilbob]

I would get behind cover for sure,

Where is cover? there is some concealment available from the display racks, but they are not bullet proof.

I think it is wise to get as much distance from mr robber as possible and draw firearm without displaying it to mr robber.

I don't know what is behind mr robber, so I would prefer not to shoot him for that reason since it is likely I would miss. unless there is something that changes my view of the circumstances from run of the mill CS robbery to more life threatening CS robbery, he gets the money and i do not interfere.

Its also possible the supposed civillians laying on the floor are accomplices and might well shoot me in the back when I draw.

It might also make a difference what gun I had. A short barrel revolver would be the absolute worst thing to have at those distances (>15 feet). You chances of actually hitting the perp is close to nil.

 

[Zip7]

Through no fault of my own, I have witnessed a great many altercations in public places -- bars, for the most part, and all when I was younger and running the roads with my buddies, some of whom got in fights as a form of entertainment.

I've seen stabbings, but have never seen a shooting - although I have seen a gun pulled a couple of times. It's always been my inclination to stay out of such matters, and I think that's a good policy. Those type of situations are never predictable, and always dangerous.

The biggest problem I can see with your scenario is, you don't really know what kind of person you are dealing with. I witnessed a guy pull a pocket pistol on one of my friends during a confrontation in a bar parking lot once... had it pointed right at my friend's forehead point blank. Bad move. My friend took it away from him and beat the guy so bad he had to go to the hospital. But there are guys out there who wouldn't hesitate, and you would never get the best of them unless you absolutely had the drop on them. And not all these type of guys are good guys either.

If you engage the BG in your scenario, you are starting a fight, in essence, and if you do, you better not be worrying about the legal fallout - you had better be sure you can win the fight. There are people in this world you really don't want to be fighting with, and if you confront a BG you shouldn't assume he is dumb hick or a coward, or any other stereotype you are familiar with.

In short, If you are hesitant, or having trouble deciding what to do, or worried about the legality of it all, then you should probably do your best to avoid a confrontation with the guy, because like the guy who pulled a gun on my friend (who was in fact, a dumb hick in those days...), you may be messing with the wrong guy.

 

[mbt2001]

I am getting tired of these "What would you do?" threads. S&T has turned into a game show forum with these things...

I would sneak over to the beer racks and start chugging with abandon, flip through the girly magazines and eat twinkies....

Any of you guys read Combat Handguns? If someone wanted to design a "shooting / training" system / event around this kind of thing the way they do in their VIP section, that would be cool. But the what would you do ones are getting silly...

 

[JDoe]

Unless there was an immediate serious threat beyond brandishing and making threats I would likely do nothing except try and remain out of the attention of the robber, escape if possible and if noticed assure him that I had no interest in his business.

My primary reason for learning self defense is SELF defense, not your defense. My goal is to go home intact and be useful to my family and not to take risks for anyone except myself and my family.

Why would I subject myself to the stress of a good or bad shooting, possibly getting hurt or killed myself, possible criminal charges, possible civil suits, possible retaliation by any conceivable mix of crazy people and so on? For what? Statistically speaking the robber is going to run out of the store without harming anyone.

For anyone that could never live with themselves knowing that they could have saved someone's life and did nothing I have some really good or some really bad news for you. You can save someone's life today by donating to a charity that provides food to people in danger of starving to death in third world countries. Now how can you live with yourself knowing that you can save someone from starving to death if you do not donate? This isn't a possible outcome it is going to happen. Another human is going to die if you don't donate money. What are you going to do in this real life situation?

 

[GEM]

Great post. BTW, the way your point about other prosocial acts as compared to the firearms based heroics was one I made in another argument about this (not saying that it isn't a good one from you! ).

It speaks to the theories of altruism - some factors are that such interventions are driven by (from many factors):

1. An anger towards the attacker and wanting vengenance
2. The perceived glory for the action.

Giving to charity doesn't do that as much. However, note that big donations to institutions usually have kiss butt party for the money bags.

 

[springmom]

Unless there was an immediate serious threat beyond brandishing and making threats I would likely do nothing except try and remain out of the attention of the robber, escape if possible and if noticed assure him that I had no interest in his business.

The problem: how do you know, until the BG shoots the clerk in the head, that there is an "immediate serious threat" or not? You don't. Nor do you know that assuring the robber will enable you to leave unscathed, or whether it will end up with YOU shot in the head.

I'm not personally on one side or the other of this debate. I don't know what I'd do. I *do* know that whatever I *think* will happen is not going to be what actually happens.

I'd suggest going and re-reading Jeff's post when he closed the previous thread. The comments about our fantasies as heroes were spot on. We *all* have them. And it's just not the way it plays out.

Springmom

 

[brighamr]

Given the OP's drawing of the situation and description, I would most likely duck behind the display cabinet (out of site of the perp). Keep my eyes and ears open and hope that the BG doesn't escalate.

If/when BG orders everyone on the ground, or attempts to shoot toward civi/me... I would most likely engage at that point, if it is possible and if it has seriously escalated.

In my limited experience, (watching COPS) most CS holdups are smash and grab, stop and rob; not really the same as a bank robbery were the BG wants hostages.

this is all hearsay, but it is my opinion of what I would do. As Springmom said "whatever I think will happen is not going to be what actually happens".

 

[ilbob]

The basic problem is that doing anything other than shooting and disabling the BG or doing nothing is likely to result in a worse situation.

Attempting to take the BG into custody is an awful idea on a lot of levels as is the idea of pointing your pea shooter at him in the hopes of scaring him off. What do you do when he puts his gun at his side and starts walking toward you ignoring your orders to freeze, drop it, etc.

Shooting and missing could well end up with you hitting the nun across the street out for her daily stroll. Along with giving the BG a lot of reason to start blasting away.

 

[Zangetsu]

I think you'd be at an advantage in this situation if you were a left handed shooter. Being a righty, I'd be uncomfortable to take full advantage of that display wrack that you're behind. That being said, if I was out of his line of sight, I'd at the very least draw my weapon and kneel down behind that rack while paying very close attention to what he was doing. If he started to get violent, I'd peep out just enough to take a few good shots and let them fly, but even deciding what constitutes, "violent" behavior is a gray zone. On one hand, he could just take the money and run, but on the other hand, let's say that you didn't shoot and he ends up killing the clerk; I'd feel that his blood was on my hands since I had the shot and didn't take it, but then again, I wouldn't necessarily want to kill somebody over a few bucks, but then again, I feel like it would be within my bounds to do so if they were brandishing a deadly weapon. Very tricky situation...I'd say the right decision in this case would be the one that leaves you and the others safe

 

[32winspl]

sorry to possibly belabor the obvious, but, what does "redux" mean?

 

[halesb]

Perps Present: 1, Armed with handgun.
.....perp seems to be agitated, threating the clerk, and severly on edge.

Positive ID + Hostile intent = go time

If you have to question what you would do, then you are already behind the power curve. That decision needs to be made prior to strapping on your .45 robbamatic or 9 munkeymeter......

 

[JDoe]

sorry to possibly belabor the obvious, but, what does "redux" mean?

brought back, revisited

 

[Realbigo]

I have to stick w/ my original answer w/ one addition. Do my [best] to be a good witness. But otherwise if i was just a bystander, I'd go w/ mouth shut, get low, draw and make ready, keep my eyes on the [ ] head, and dial 911 on my cell phone in my pocket. Here at least they have that smart 911, so it will track back to my phones gps. Hopefully he takes the money and leaves. If he moves to do any real harm I make the challenge and if he dosen't drop his weapon, be it gun, knife, or big stick of some sort, I get a safe angle and fire.

 

[rainbowbob]

A short barrel revolver would be the absolute worst thing to have at those distances (>15 feet). You chances of actually hitting the perp is close to nil.

Awww, c'mon! I aint bragging - but I can consistently put all rounds in a full-size silhouette at more than twice that distance with my snubby. I'll grant you, motionless paper isn't the same thing - but I still would be confident at that distance if the BG wasn't moving around too much and wasn't facing me with the gun (as presented in the scenario).

Still...I'd take cover, hang back, get ready to go if it got real ugly fast - and ready to stay put if the BG grabs the cash and books.

 

[Titan6]

Given all the new information available and assuming there are no [ ] to ruin my day.... No change to previous. Shoot to kill if I have a clear shot or maneuver to where I do have a clear shot otherwise and then engage.

Then go on line with my credit card and send $10 to UNICEF and take credit for saving two lives in one day, even though it is much more expensive than the 2-3 .40 rounds.

People everywhere will swoon to my magnificance and I will be given the key to the city and make the talk show circuit. Small children and puppy dogs everywhere will adore me.

 

[Fred Fuller]

[STRIKE]Aaaaaaannd that's it for this one.[/STRIKE]

OK, so you all want to try this one again. Read what's been added below, and go ahead. But if too many people Fail To Do Right, they will knacker this thread for the last time.

lpl/nc

ETA: A question has been raised about why I originally closed this thread. Fair enough, since apparently it isn't self evident to everyone.

This topic provoked an excessively large number of smart-alec, condescending, all-noise-no-signal posts in its previous run, which were deleted. We are not here to buff our comic knuckles on our lapel. I'm not deleting that kind of post any more- they can stay here for all the world to see, but the thread will end if that kind of behavior starts up- because it feeds on itself, gets worse, provokes people, and things get said that staff cannot in good conscience just edit out or let go. Staff here generally closes threads that begin to veer off topic, or off the High Road, and resist being steered back on track- before things get worse. And once a thread begins to head for the ditch, things usually get worse- there's a good deal of staff experience to back that up.

And there is a question of language as well. If you notice brackets [text] and an 'AGM...' in the 'Last edited by...' line in a post here in S&T, the post has been edited for language. There is a general prohibition about using street language on THR (House Rule Number 3, for anyone who's counting- the link to the Forum Rules is at the right hand corner at the top of the page). This is a family-friendly forum, and the language used here should reflect that fact.

Standards of conduct at THR are higher than the usual gun board. Standards in S&T are even higher- just read the rules stickied on the index page. There are LOTS of places on the internet where juvenile behavior is appreciated, embraced, encouraged. This is not one of them.

If you want threads in S&T to keep going, feed them with helpful, analytical or encouraging posts. If that's too much work, perhaps finding a less strenuous environment in which to share bad humor and snide comments would be a worthwhile thing to do- while there's still a choice in the matter. We can't just ban people from S&T alone...

lpl