Cooper Challenge: 20 Shots 20 Seconds 20 Inches 1,000 Yards
- Thread starter Travis McGee
- Start date
- Status
Balog
Member
I'd like to see some of the Knob Creek guys trying to do this with a MG-42, M2HB, or the water cooled .50. What was the designation for that one?
archy
Member
The military designation for the .50 watercooled was the M1921A1. In the early 1930s, most guns were converted to air-cooled heavy barrelled types, redesignated M2.
The Colt commercial version for interhational sales was the MG52.
Balog
Member
Thanks archy. Welcome to THR!
archy
Member
Y'all can blame Travis McGee for my presence hereabouts. As usual, it's all his fault!
Nando Aqui
Member
Completed my first step towards the 20-20-20-1000 challenge. This first step is the "easiest", and helps me to establish what I need to do to proceed.
Rifle #1: HK91 with its own bipod, orginal trigger (although I did some polishing) ARMS claw mount, and Simmons Whitetail Expedition 1.5-6x32 scope. This has been a reliable setup for the past two years, even removing the mount each time I go to the range. I used Portuguese* ammo as the HK likes it very well.
Rifle #2: SA M1A, loaded, SS barrel, with a Harris bipod, SA scope mount and SA 4x scope. I haven't done anything else to this rifle - yet. This setup has worked OK for me, but I haven't had much time with it so far. I used Australian ammo, which the M1A appears to like. I know, however, that the M1A will do much better with Black Hills. But that's for the next step.
Range = 100 yards
Target = 2 inches
Number of shots = 20
Times:
#1 HK91 = about 60 seconds. I tried to fire one round every three seconds as best as I could; I think I came very close. (Not allowed to shoot faster than once every 3 seconds at this range)
#2 M1A = about 90 seconds. I just couldn't line up the cross hairs with this scope or get back on target as well as with the HK. I was able to get some shots off three seconds apart, but others were five or six seconds apart.
Procedure:
I shot the HK91 three rounds to make sure everything was OK, I then replaced the three rounds and shot 20 rounds, waited a minute or so, and shot the second 20-round magazine. Changed targets and did the same with the M1A.
Results:
#1 HK91: First group about 3". Not bad.
Second group, much better. First shot was high and I knew it. Not counting the first shot, the second group was just over 2". See target below.
#2 M1A: Not as good. Just under 3" for the first, and just over 3" for the second 20-round group.
Notes:
a. Shooting from the bipod resting on a bench and my shoulder at the other end will not work for one-shot-per-second; the rifle moves off target too much. At the end of the 20 rounds, I was 4 to 6 inches behind where I had started. Need to use sand bags front and back.
b. After the first five or six shots, it was very difficult for me to get back on target with the M1A and its scope, but I had absolutely no problem with the HK91. Besides the the scope itself, other differences are: The HK91 has a riser on the stock (cheek-piece) - I need one for the M1A. Also, I can shoot the HK91 without eye glasses, but not so the M1A. Perhaps I can adjust the SA scope so don't have to wear my eye glasses with it?
c. The M1A 'should' be a better candidate; better trigger and inherently more accuracy. However, I believe it will need Black Hills ammo. On the other hand, I once tried BH ammo with the HK91, and did not notice a big difference - I'll have to try it again.
Next:
#1 HK91 - Try BH ammo and see what it does.
#2 M1A- Get a cheek-piece and try to adjust the scope, or get a different scope altogether.
THEN- over Easter weekend, setup a 200 or 300 yard range and try them there, and go for the 1/second rate.
* About the Portuguese ammo.
I recently read that there are differences between lots. Frankly, I had never noticed. So today I shot from two of the four lots I have: 79-59 and 81-48. Were they different? Yes! One was just over 2" (the picture above) and the other 3". The problem is that I did not notice which magazine I used each time! I loaded each of the two magazines with only one lot type, but when I got done shooting, I realized that I did not know which magazine I had used each time. Sorry - I'll watch it next time.
What do I think? I don't - too early to tell, other than I have to do much, much better to even come close.
Alex
Rifle #1: HK91 with its own bipod, orginal trigger (although I did some polishing) ARMS claw mount, and Simmons Whitetail Expedition 1.5-6x32 scope. This has been a reliable setup for the past two years, even removing the mount each time I go to the range. I used Portuguese* ammo as the HK likes it very well.
Rifle #2: SA M1A, loaded, SS barrel, with a Harris bipod, SA scope mount and SA 4x scope. I haven't done anything else to this rifle - yet. This setup has worked OK for me, but I haven't had much time with it so far. I used Australian ammo, which the M1A appears to like. I know, however, that the M1A will do much better with Black Hills. But that's for the next step.
Range = 100 yards
Target = 2 inches
Number of shots = 20
Times:
#1 HK91 = about 60 seconds. I tried to fire one round every three seconds as best as I could; I think I came very close. (Not allowed to shoot faster than once every 3 seconds at this range)
#2 M1A = about 90 seconds. I just couldn't line up the cross hairs with this scope or get back on target as well as with the HK. I was able to get some shots off three seconds apart, but others were five or six seconds apart.
Procedure:
I shot the HK91 three rounds to make sure everything was OK, I then replaced the three rounds and shot 20 rounds, waited a minute or so, and shot the second 20-round magazine. Changed targets and did the same with the M1A.
Results:
#1 HK91: First group about 3". Not bad.
Second group, much better. First shot was high and I knew it. Not counting the first shot, the second group was just over 2". See target below.
#2 M1A: Not as good. Just under 3" for the first, and just over 3" for the second 20-round group.
Notes:
a. Shooting from the bipod resting on a bench and my shoulder at the other end will not work for one-shot-per-second; the rifle moves off target too much. At the end of the 20 rounds, I was 4 to 6 inches behind where I had started. Need to use sand bags front and back.
b. After the first five or six shots, it was very difficult for me to get back on target with the M1A and its scope, but I had absolutely no problem with the HK91. Besides the the scope itself, other differences are: The HK91 has a riser on the stock (cheek-piece) - I need one for the M1A. Also, I can shoot the HK91 without eye glasses, but not so the M1A. Perhaps I can adjust the SA scope so don't have to wear my eye glasses with it?
c. The M1A 'should' be a better candidate; better trigger and inherently more accuracy. However, I believe it will need Black Hills ammo. On the other hand, I once tried BH ammo with the HK91, and did not notice a big difference - I'll have to try it again.
Next:
#1 HK91 - Try BH ammo and see what it does.
#2 M1A- Get a cheek-piece and try to adjust the scope, or get a different scope altogether.
THEN- over Easter weekend, setup a 200 or 300 yard range and try them there, and go for the 1/second rate.
* About the Portuguese ammo.
I recently read that there are differences between lots. Frankly, I had never noticed. So today I shot from two of the four lots I have: 79-59 and 81-48. Were they different? Yes! One was just over 2" (the picture above) and the other 3". The problem is that I did not notice which magazine I used each time! I loaded each of the two magazines with only one lot type, but when I got done shooting, I realized that I did not know which magazine I had used each time. Sorry - I'll watch it next time.
What do I think? I don't - too early to tell, other than I have to do much, much better to even come close.
Alex
I may have been the one to start mentioning differing quality in lots of portugese surplus 308.
I have 80-28 and 80-31
TO the best of my recollection, the 80-28 stuff is the nice stuff, and the 80-32 stuff is not doing so well for me. The good stuf was giving me about 1" groups at 100 yards. The bad stuff was giving me groups of about 3" at 100 yards.
wasn't within easy reach of the ammo at the time I griped about it.
I have 80-28 and 80-31
TO the best of my recollection, the 80-28 stuff is the nice stuff, and the 80-32 stuff is not doing so well for me. The good stuf was giving me about 1" groups at 100 yards. The bad stuff was giving me groups of about 3" at 100 yards.
wasn't within easy reach of the ammo at the time I griped about it.
artherd
member
seeker_two: Let's rock!
Travis McGee
Member
Nando Aqui: That is some fine shooting, no doubt about it! I think that to hit 20" at 1000 yards, the Cooper Challenge winner would have to shoot about 1" groups at 100 yards. The shots are not going to diverge in a perfect geometric pattern like lasers. Tiny factors will creep in over the next 900 yards to spread the group apart: wind, variable humidity, bullet wobble passing subsonic and so on. All that said, I think your putting some data on the board is fantastic, and the groups speak for themselves! Great shootin' Nando!
Nando Aqui
Member
Travis (thanks, BTW), et al -
I have seen a number of adjustable rests that support the rifle front and back. Some have means of adjusting the height of the front rest only, and others both the front and back. Usually they have some sort of pad at each. These rests appear to be great for determining what a rifle is capable of doing, but since I have been more interested in what I can do with a rifle, I have never had much interest in these rests. All I have used, other than just my body, have been bipods, and an occasional towel over a box or plastic block. I used sand bags sometime ago, but it was not a nice setup, so I couldn't tell how well they work.
I had planned on using a bipod at the front and a sand bag at the rear, but adjusting this to get the right elevation and make it be repeatable may be nearly impossible. Also, somehow I will have to 'anchor' myself well enough so the rifle doesn't move me back a little each shot. In the strings I shot yesterday, I took the time to make small forward corrections several times, but I was using three seconds between shots. However, if I want to maintain one second average between shots, I won't be able to make forward corrections at all; all the time to spare between shots (from 0 to 1/4 or 1/2 second) will be needed to re-acquire the target and aim.
===============================================
In your experience, and in the context of this 'challenge', what rest do you believe may provide the most stable support while at the same time allow the shooter to minimize the amount of movement caused by recoil? Again, this will entail the rifle resting on top of the support and not fastened or weighed down, other than by the shooter's hands, of course.
===============================================
To be honest, in thinking it over, I think doing it in two seconds per shot may be doable, but one second makes me wonder. With a .223 or lesser recoil rifle, perhaps; but how well would a lighter bullet do at 1,000 yards? At up to 600, no problem; but out to 1,000... I don't know.
Alex
I have seen a number of adjustable rests that support the rifle front and back. Some have means of adjusting the height of the front rest only, and others both the front and back. Usually they have some sort of pad at each. These rests appear to be great for determining what a rifle is capable of doing, but since I have been more interested in what I can do with a rifle, I have never had much interest in these rests. All I have used, other than just my body, have been bipods, and an occasional towel over a box or plastic block. I used sand bags sometime ago, but it was not a nice setup, so I couldn't tell how well they work.
I had planned on using a bipod at the front and a sand bag at the rear, but adjusting this to get the right elevation and make it be repeatable may be nearly impossible. Also, somehow I will have to 'anchor' myself well enough so the rifle doesn't move me back a little each shot. In the strings I shot yesterday, I took the time to make small forward corrections several times, but I was using three seconds between shots. However, if I want to maintain one second average between shots, I won't be able to make forward corrections at all; all the time to spare between shots (from 0 to 1/4 or 1/2 second) will be needed to re-acquire the target and aim.
===============================================
In your experience, and in the context of this 'challenge', what rest do you believe may provide the most stable support while at the same time allow the shooter to minimize the amount of movement caused by recoil? Again, this will entail the rifle resting on top of the support and not fastened or weighed down, other than by the shooter's hands, of course.
===============================================
To be honest, in thinking it over, I think doing it in two seconds per shot may be doable, but one second makes me wonder. With a .223 or lesser recoil rifle, perhaps; but how well would a lighter bullet do at 1,000 yards? At up to 600, no problem; but out to 1,000... I don't know.
Alex
Anyone know Stuart Wilson? I haven't talked with him since I moved, but I'm betting he'd have a good shot at it. Groan... no pun intended.
www.shooterready.com
www.shooterready.com
Travis McGee
Member
Nando, I agree that a rifle will have to be in a very solid adjustable bench rest device to get close to the Cooper Challenge. But short of that, have you ever seen an Accu-Shot? This is a $65 adjustable monopod that attaches to the swivel mount on most rifle's buttstocks. It folds out of the way forward along the stock, or swings down into shooting position. In position, you hold it with your off-hand, crossed under the buttstock. It has a threaded knob handle that you turn inside your fist, to make your barrel go up and down in fine increments. No more sand bag, no more wobble. With your bipod in front, and an Accu-Shot in back, your point of aim stays dead on, and you can "work" the elevation like a micrometer. Many big city SWAT teams, the Army SFs, the Israeli IDF snipers and many others are using them. Go to www.accu-shot.com to check them out.
Matt
Matt
Nando Aqui
Member
Travis,
That Accu-Shot sure sounds promising - I will try one.
Thanks
Alex
That Accu-Shot sure sounds promising - I will try one.
Thanks
Alex
Grump
Member
What is the report from our highpower shooters who do the Rattle-Battle (NITT Match, IIRC)? Starting from the prone at 600 yards, locked and loaded and ready to roll with a 20-round mag....
How long to empty the mag? I've *heard* that the best shooters can get off something like 30 rounds in the 50 seconds that the targets are exposed. The target is 24 inches wide, IIRC, and the accuracy standard could be called loose since all it takes is a hit anywhere on the target--a silhouette perhaps 36 or 42 inches tall.
Those with such experience could clue us in on how well a shooter in a tight sling can recover from recoil and bang out the shots. Every pun intended. <groan>
How long to empty the mag? I've *heard* that the best shooters can get off something like 30 rounds in the 50 seconds that the targets are exposed. The target is 24 inches wide, IIRC, and the accuracy standard could be called loose since all it takes is a hit anywhere on the target--a silhouette perhaps 36 or 42 inches tall.
Those with such experience could clue us in on how well a shooter in a tight sling can recover from recoil and bang out the shots. Every pun intended. <groan>
Nando Aqui
Member
The Accu-Shot looks great - now I just have to figure out how to attach it to my HK91, below. No problem attaching it to the M1A:
Any constructive ideas?
Alex
Any constructive ideas?
Alex
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
Grump I did post but I would guess thats it is more important to talk about how it might be down with out none of them ever coming close to how its going to get done.
i have since come to the realization that they do not want to learn how to do it but its better to try to keep coming up with the ideal that they think might do it , They ought to be writting in comic books as they have no clue.
I told them how to do it but they know its beyound them.
so my experience in Rattle battle and my scores mean nothing to the ignorant.
so as far as I am concerned they can all kiss my ???! ban me
i have since come to the realization that they do not want to learn how to do it but its better to try to keep coming up with the ideal that they think might do it , They ought to be writting in comic books as they have no clue.
I told them how to do it but they know its beyound them.
so my experience in Rattle battle and my scores mean nothing to the ignorant.
so as far as I am concerned they can all kiss my ???! ban me
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
I just got around to posting to this myself. I shoot with Jon and I know how he feels. Jon, just don't try so hard, man!
Grump, Jon and I both shoot NTIT and I do think that this is entirely possible. My opinions are that it would have to be done with iron sights, (for speed), a perfect NPA (I would want to practice several times right befor the real attempt, to ensure that I had my NPA perfect), a person in the pits to mark my shots and to clean the targets, great breath control, excellent sling use, and a caliber that allows for excellent BC and low recoil. I think that a .308 would be hard to fire that fast with that accuracy. Since the best bullets you can fire from an AR that fit the mag are 75s and 77s, it's kind of out of the ballgame too (90 JLKs would be great, but are too long for multi-shot use). I think an AR-10 in 6XC would be just about perfect. Great ballistics and the recoil is light enough (less than .308 you could get right back on target immediately. I think the use of a bipod or bag might allow too much wiggle room and too much bounce time after the shot. A really strong slung position will get that gun right back in line much faster.
Grump, Jon and I both shoot NTIT and I do think that this is entirely possible. My opinions are that it would have to be done with iron sights, (for speed), a perfect NPA (I would want to practice several times right befor the real attempt, to ensure that I had my NPA perfect), a person in the pits to mark my shots and to clean the targets, great breath control, excellent sling use, and a caliber that allows for excellent BC and low recoil. I think that a .308 would be hard to fire that fast with that accuracy. Since the best bullets you can fire from an AR that fit the mag are 75s and 77s, it's kind of out of the ballgame too (90 JLKs would be great, but are too long for multi-shot use). I think an AR-10 in 6XC would be just about perfect. Great ballistics and the recoil is light enough (less than .308 you could get right back on target immediately. I think the use of a bipod or bag might allow too much wiggle room and too much bounce time after the shot. A really strong slung position will get that gun right back in line much faster.
30Cal
Member
I think if you were going to make an honest attempt at this with an M1A, you'd be best served with a globe sight up front instead of the post. I think it'd make it a lot easier to maintain the same elevation when the heat starts to come up off the barrel. It'd need to be very low to keep the rear aperature down so that you could cement your cheek onto the stock. The standard sights set at 1000yds leave your head stuck up in the breeze.
I have to wonder if 5-10 rapid warmup shots immediately prior might at least give you a more consistant sight picture rather than having to deal with one that is deteriorating.
For a one time thing, I'd probably be tempted to go nuts with the spray glue as well. I'd also add lead to get the rifle to 15lbs+.
Ty
I have to wonder if 5-10 rapid warmup shots immediately prior might at least give you a more consistant sight picture rather than having to deal with one that is deteriorating.
For a one time thing, I'd probably be tempted to go nuts with the spray glue as well. I'd also add lead to get the rifle to 15lbs+.
Ty
Steve Smith, I was thinking along the same lines of an AR10 chambered in something like 260Rem and using VLD bullets.
Throw a good freefloat tube on it like the Badger Ord tube which is nice and smooth for working off of a sandbagged rest, probably would work. Good bag technique combined with something like a match grade AR10, just might manage it.
Throw a good freefloat tube on it like the Badger Ord tube which is nice and smooth for working off of a sandbagged rest, probably would work. Good bag technique combined with something like a match grade AR10, just might manage it.
Grump
Member
Steve and Jon:
Thank you both for doing much to *inform* this discussion with actual experiences and personal observations of what truly happens on the firing lines.
I understand the utility of irons for speed, but it also appears that discerning the aiming point could be a problem is the bull is only 20 inches. My earlier post on bull sizes was a mental malf, thinking about 600-yard distances. For irons, I believe that a 36-inch black would be best, perhaps 42 or so (isn't that the LR black size--7 ring IIRC--?) inches as optimal. Otherwise, a scope might be best, but it appears impractical to use those 20-power monsters, b/c of target re-acquisition challenges.
Sounds like the top HP shooters are getting about 20 hits for 20 shots, a reload, and 10 more shots, all in 50 seconds at 600 yards, on a 24-inch wide silhouette. Can the accuracy of 12-inch groups at 600 yards be attained at the rate of 1 shot per second?
Any idea what the reload times are on rattle-battle? When I was doing over the course, I'd take fully 20 seconds to get into position (yes, a different game entirely) and get off the first shot...
I'm hearing a growing consensus that lighter recoiling cartridges are part of making this possible. 6mm SAW, 6.5 Badger, sounds good--can a 6mm PPC do the job?
Thank you both for doing much to *inform* this discussion with actual experiences and personal observations of what truly happens on the firing lines.
I understand the utility of irons for speed, but it also appears that discerning the aiming point could be a problem is the bull is only 20 inches. My earlier post on bull sizes was a mental malf, thinking about 600-yard distances. For irons, I believe that a 36-inch black would be best, perhaps 42 or so (isn't that the LR black size--7 ring IIRC--?) inches as optimal. Otherwise, a scope might be best, but it appears impractical to use those 20-power monsters, b/c of target re-acquisition challenges.
Sounds like the top HP shooters are getting about 20 hits for 20 shots, a reload, and 10 more shots, all in 50 seconds at 600 yards, on a 24-inch wide silhouette. Can the accuracy of 12-inch groups at 600 yards be attained at the rate of 1 shot per second?
Any idea what the reload times are on rattle-battle? When I was doing over the course, I'd take fully 20 seconds to get into position (yes, a different game entirely) and get off the first shot...
I'm hearing a growing consensus that lighter recoiling cartridges are part of making this possible. 6mm SAW, 6.5 Badger, sounds good--can a 6mm PPC do the job?
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
I wouldn't have a 20" bull. I'd have a big-??? bull (maybe 5') and a born again hard hold. Hold hard enough to shoot into a 20" center.
We use a 30 rounder for NTIT. For this challenge, you could use a 20 and get lower to the ground, allowing for an even harder hold.
In NTIT, you start in position, so you have the entire 50 seconds of shooting time.
I think the record from 600 is from a USMC shooter...46 ??? hits and I'm sure that he put them all in the size of a pie plate. Those boys are hard as woodpecker lips.
We use a 30 rounder for NTIT. For this challenge, you could use a 20 and get lower to the ground, allowing for an even harder hold.
In NTIT, you start in position, so you have the entire 50 seconds of shooting time.
I think the record from 600 is from a USMC shooter...46 ??? hits and I'm sure that he put them all in the size of a pie plate. Those boys are hard as woodpecker lips.
Nando AquÃ: re mounting the Accu-Shot to your HK91.
I have no idea how handy you are with your hands so I am recommending a gunsmith. No insult meant to your personal abilities.
I am presuming that it must be mounted exactly in the middle of the stock.
First thought: Would it be possible to have a gunsmith insert a sling mount into the base of grip after you have added some Brownells bedding kit to shape it?
Or reshaping of the grip base to match the Accu-Shot could be done with a hand held router tool. This would probably be the least costly. No comment on effectiveness.
My other thought is to use a piece of metal bent forming a flat bottomed "U". This would be bent to the width of your stock. Insert a piece of hardwood, that has been shaved to match the bottom of your HK91, into this. Or drill a hole through the wood and the metal to allow the wood to be firmly attached to the metal , instead of shaving it.
Now you would need to drill two holes in each side of the metal and one in the bottom for a sling mount that would recess into the wood.
Loosely attach the Accu-Shot to the new sling mount which would be protruding from the flat base of the metal. Fill in the empty space with Brownells bedding kit. As the Brownells starts to firm up, thighten the Accu-Shot into place.
BEFORE using the Brownells, read this link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65876
I hope I've given you a general idea of what I'm thinking. I'm sure changes will need to be made to my ideas to make it all come together for you.
Now onto the target as the distances become further.
Would a large red or orange background, say 8' by 8' with the 20" target in front of and centered into it, aid in locating and relocating the target after each shot? Home Depot sells rolls of thin plastic for construction sites that might fill this idea.
I have no idea how handy you are with your hands so I am recommending a gunsmith. No insult meant to your personal abilities.
I am presuming that it must be mounted exactly in the middle of the stock.
First thought: Would it be possible to have a gunsmith insert a sling mount into the base of grip after you have added some Brownells bedding kit to shape it?
Or reshaping of the grip base to match the Accu-Shot could be done with a hand held router tool. This would probably be the least costly. No comment on effectiveness.
My other thought is to use a piece of metal bent forming a flat bottomed "U". This would be bent to the width of your stock. Insert a piece of hardwood, that has been shaved to match the bottom of your HK91, into this. Or drill a hole through the wood and the metal to allow the wood to be firmly attached to the metal , instead of shaving it.
Now you would need to drill two holes in each side of the metal and one in the bottom for a sling mount that would recess into the wood.
Loosely attach the Accu-Shot to the new sling mount which would be protruding from the flat base of the metal. Fill in the empty space with Brownells bedding kit. As the Brownells starts to firm up, thighten the Accu-Shot into place.
BEFORE using the Brownells, read this link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65876
I hope I've given you a general idea of what I'm thinking. I'm sure changes will need to be made to my ideas to make it all come together for you.
Now onto the target as the distances become further.
Would a large red or orange background, say 8' by 8' with the 20" target in front of and centered into it, aid in locating and relocating the target after each shot? Home Depot sells rolls of thin plastic for construction sites that might fill this idea.
Nando Aqui
Member
Sparker -
Thanks for your ideas. I really can do just about anything, whether wood or metal, but wondered if perhaps anyone had already done this to an HK91 stock. I even have an extra stock to play with! I'll also check at HKPRO.com.
I am still inclined to believe that the M1A has better potential, but I have yet to prove that. I am also going to consider my AR15 HBAR, but don't know enough yet about the lighter bullets, even when using the heavier .223 possible, for the 1000-yd range.
I view this challenge as a great learning experience, and I am going to do it, whether in 20" or more, or even if in a few extra seconds.
Alex
Thanks for your ideas. I really can do just about anything, whether wood or metal, but wondered if perhaps anyone had already done this to an HK91 stock. I even have an extra stock to play with! I'll also check at HKPRO.com.
I am still inclined to believe that the M1A has better potential, but I have yet to prove that. I am also going to consider my AR15 HBAR, but don't know enough yet about the lighter bullets, even when using the heavier .223 possible, for the 1000-yd range.
I view this challenge as a great learning experience, and I am going to do it, whether in 20" or more, or even if in a few extra seconds. Alex
My initial idea was to wrap the stock with two loops of rubber tape. Take the Accu-Shot and cinch it down with a couple of large radiator clamps for a few test shots.
Easy, no damage and less than $5. You might want to try it just to see how it works.
Easy, no damage and less than $5. You might want to try it just to see how it works.
Nando Aqui
Member
Accidentally duplicated - please delete?
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