Cop shoots, kills teen after he skips out on check at IHOP

[American By Blood]

Stepping in front of a moving vehicle on a dine and dash should not be SOP. Taking the license plate down and paying the freeloaders a PERFECTLY LEGAL AND OFFICIAL visit after the fact should be.

That said, it seems they're not making Eagle Scouts like they used to. I dropped out of scouting after my time as a WEBELOS, but if I found myself in the company of the kinds of degenerates who skip out on checks I'd do everything within my power to prevent the (albeit petty) theft from taking place. The dead boy should have picked up the tab if his finances allowed. And if not, he should have approached the manager on duty and offered to do a few hours at the dish sink in return for his and his friends' meals.

Scouting is one of the few activities left in America that encourages young people to put service to a higher code before fashionable thought and behavior. It's a shame it didn't sink in. Such is life in hedonistic post-America.

 

[ArmedBear]

When I was young, I was told stories like this one, to help me to survive.

The point of the stories was simple: you hang out with the wrong crowd, you might pay a much higher price than you ever imagined.

If you hang out with people who try to run down someone who has caught them stealing -- that IS assault with a deadly weapon, BTW -- then you might end up dead. He may not have expected this incident, but did he not KNOW the sort of people he was spending his time with?

It's devastatingly sad. The man didn't deserve to suffer that consequence of his actions. But sometimes, such actions do have such consequences. That's what I was taught, and if I didn't heed the teaching, it was my fault, no one else's.

Does no one teach kids that? Do the parents feel no culpability if they didn't?

The best thing we can all do is to share this story with our own kids. They need to hear it.

 

[Kentak]

I think some of the posters in this thread:

1) have never had kids

2) forgot some of the sht they did as kids.

3) believe their kids are (or will be) perfect and *never* do anything wrong when with their peers.

4) and if they do do something wrong, getting shot is an unfortunate but perfectly natural consequence of same.

K

 

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Please cut and paste the text of the article into your post.
_____________________________________________
Links on news sites are often short lived and in a few weeks anyone looking at the thread may not be able to bring up the original article.

Jeff, are you sure you want to make this statement, as a moderator and as a representative of THR?

Your pastes omitted something important, to wit:

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

It's one thing if THR posters take it upon themselves to violate copyright law. If the forum requests that we do so as a matter of policy, aren't you opening the forum up to being sued for copyright infringement? That's the reason most forums DON'T allow pasting entire articles into posts.

I posted a statement similar to this once before to Jeff, though he appeared to ignore it.

Free Republic got sued over this issue.

I think the best solution to this issue is to just summarize the article in question, in addition to providing a link.

 

[JohnBT]

"2) forgot some of the sht they did as kids."

I did some dumb stuff, but I never swerved to try and run down a uniformed police officer. Did you?

John

 

[Kentak]

JohnBT==

Couple of points. No, I never did do that, and neither did the kid who was killed, he was a passenger in the rear seat. Did you read the account of the location of the hits on the car? Not exactly well aimed shots with the purpose of stopping the driver of the car--who would be the only legitimate target IF, and that's a big if, we grant the "fear for my life" reasoning. Besides, I didn't read anything in the linked accounts that say the car swerved towards the officer.

If the cop had time to make four or five well-aimed shots, he had time to get out of the way of the car. That's my point. If he couldn't make well-aimed shots at the driver, he had no business shooting and endangering passengers or anyone else that may have been in the line of fire.

Look, it's one thing if a cop is trapped in a dead-end alley and a pissed off felon is bearing down on him, or a wanted violent felon is fleeing the scene of the crime, and a very different thing to place yourself in front of a car of young people who you suspect didn't pay a pancake check--and then use that same proximity as justification for using deadly force. Get the GD plate number and pay them a visit later.

Are any of the forum members who are supporting the cop in this incident the same members who were outraged about armed cops entering homes in NOLA to confiscate guns?

K

 

[444]

Kentak, I agree with you.
When I was a kid, I did stupid stuff. Still do for that matter.
And, when I was a kid I ate in a restraunt a few times and took off without paying. I did it twice. The second time the manager of the restraunt got in front of the car to stop us. We also smoked dope a few times and drank a few beers now and then.
As an adult, looking back on it, I realize it was the wrong thing to do. I realize now that people were trying to make an honest living. They were working hard at a job that sucked and I ripped them off. I can honestly say that at that age and at that time I didn't appreciate fully what I was doing. I grew up in a small town and I guess that seemed wild and dangerous at the time and we felt some need to be wild and dangerous.
As an adult, living in a decent sized city, I talk to other guys at work and realize that myself and the kids I hung around with were pretty inocent and well behaved kids compared to the people I talk to.
If my kids never did anything worse than skip out on a restraunt check I would think I did a pretty decent job of raising them. All kids are going to make some mistakes no matter what their upbringing. Very few people manage to make it all the way to adulthood without making a few mistakes along the way. The fact is that life is a learning experience. Everyday I realize that I know more now than I did yesterday.
That kid made a mistake and will never have the opportunity to learn from it.

 

[ArmedBear]

Let me reiterate...

Life is not fair.

Hanging out with "the wrong crowd" can result in horrible consequences -- undeserved, but real nevertheless. Most of us are lucky.

I don't think anyone thinks this kid DESERVED to get shot over a relatively small crime.

I do think, however, that most of us realize that putting oneself in said situation by associating with drugged-out petty criminals can result in very bad things. If not a cop, maybe a pissed-off dealer might shoot at you. There are people and places to avoid.

Again, life isn't fair. He didn't deserve this fate. But this fate can befall those who do dumb things and let their dirtbag peers, rather than their own moral compass, guide their actions.

That's what I'm going to tell my kid when old enough -- pretty young now. Do they always listen? No. Of course not.

It's a sad situation, and it could have been avoided.

 

[Lou629]

The LEO in question here may be the finest example of what a cop is supposed to be, and this story is just a tragic ending to a very bad day. OTOH, it could be that he was an example of a tragedy just waiting to happen. All groups everywhere have bad apples in them. I'm not saying this LEO was one of those, but it's possible.
We've all known or seen someone at some point who scared the hell out of us with their gun handling skills or lack thereof, their blood-thirsty rhetoric, a belligerent-aggressive manner, or all three. You know the type, we all do. These are the guys who we will no longer knowingly associate with most times, or at any time at all when firearms are present.
All i'm saying here is if those types of individuals are present in the general population of us civilians, then there's a chance for it to happen in the LEO population on a % basis too. Could this guy be one of them? Hopefully not, but we'll never know for sure.

 

[Kentak]

444,

Well said


ArmedBear,

I respect what you are saying, and I often use that "life is not fair" line myself. But, this is really about the cop's judgement, actions, and motives. I'm willing to revise my opinion if we learn more about how this incident went down, but on the face, I seriously question if this tragedy wasn't precipitated by extremely bad judgment, and possibly malicious intent on the cop's part.

I would hate to think *some* cops might place themselves in front of cars with the thought beforehand that doing so can justify using deadly force.

Serve and protect, my ass! I don't need protection from pancake bandits, and as I said in a previous post, I'm sure the restaurant owner is horrified this happened at his restaurant.

K

 

[MechAg94]

I think some of the posters in this thread:

1) have never had kids

2) forgot some of the sht they did as kids.

3) believe their kids are (or will be) perfect and *never* do anything wrong when with their peers.

4) and if they do do something wrong, getting shot is an unfortunate but perfectly natural consequence of same.

1. No I don't. My brothers have two little girls and son.
2. No I haven't forgotten. I have never walked out on a bill though. Even if I had, I would not expect anyone to dismiss it as "Okay" just because they did it when they were young. One thing my Dad taught me is that you take responsibility for your actions. Sometimes the consequences aren't what you expected. It sucks, but that's life. Ain't it great that we live in this day and time when petty thieves are hardly punished at all. Not really. These young adults did not fear the consequences of their actions. Maybe they should have. Stealing is steailing is stealing. It may not deserve a death sentence, but s__t happens.

3. I don't fault the friends and relatives. They always say stuff like that and the media always prints it. It always rings hollow to me though. Obviously, if all they said was really true, none of this would have happened.

4. Getting shot ain't the normal punishment, but thieves get shot all the time when they break into people's houses. It is really not that far away from stealing meals to stealing stuff from a house. Once you justify one, it is easy to justify the other. (I am refering to the people doing the stealing not other posters.)

Whether or not the officer made a good shoot is a legal question that apparently has been resolved. However, I find it difficult to work up a lot of sympathy for a thief who got shot. As ArmedBear said, running with the wrong crowd and lead to bad consequences even for good kids.

 

[Derby FALs]

Whether or not the officer made a good shoot is a legal question that apparently has been resolved.

How often have you heard of a bad shoot? We had an undercover officer shoot a young drug dealer three times in the back. The officer was trying to buy drugs. Concluded it was a good shoot although the department fired him.

 

[rbernie]

I have never walked out on a bill though. Even if I had, I would not expect anyone to dismiss it as "Okay" just because they did it when they were young. One thing my Dad taught me is that you take responsibility for your actions. Sometimes the consequences aren't what you expected. It sucks, but that's life.

Getting DEAD for petty theft is a bit over the top, no? You want a pound of flesh - make 'em work 500 hours of community service. Don't shoot em.

Ain't it great that we live in this day and time when petty thieves are hardly punished at all. Not really. These young adults did not fear the consequences of their actions. Maybe they should have.

Yup - this'll learn 'em reeeel gud. Oh, wait - he cain't be lernt this lesson. He's de-ad.

You want to teach lessons? Rule number one has to be "DON'T KILL THE STUDENTS". That plays merryhob with their ability to learn, donchaknow.

thieves get shot all the time when they break into people's houses.

I don't shoot anyone for stealing my TV. I shoot someone for being in my house in the dark while my children are sleeping upstairs. The fact that there is a theft involved is incidental to my primary concern - getting you away from my family.

Look at it another way: you come home to find your front door open and just in time to see some teenage dude hoofing it down the street with your TV in his arms. You chase him down, get in front of him, point your pistol at him and tell him to stop. Rather than stopping, he throws the TV at you in an effort to run away. You sidestep the TV and shoot him dead, ostensibly for assaulting you with the TV. Do you think that most reasonable people would consider that a good shoot?

 

[ebd10]

Activating an armed uniformed cop who fired his weapon and killed someone who skipped out on a ticket for pancakes and sausage but was under the physical control of another

The problem I have with this statement is that it makes the cop seem like some kind of mechanism, with no choice but to act in a number of pre-programmed responses. He made a choice just like the driver of the car made a choice, and all of the participants in the meal made a choice.

Oddly, the first reports I heard said that he stepped in front of the vehicle, now we discover that the driver swerved. My question is; did he swerve to hit the cop, or did he swerve in response to the cop drawing his piece? I suspect we will never know the whole story for sure.

 

[Indy7373]

I don't post often, preferring to lurk. Now I don't really know what happened, but from reading the news links provided, I seem to recall seeing that several witnesses say the car swerve at the officer.

Not saying it made him right to shoot, but it seems that alot of posters are claiming the officer stepped directly in front of the car. Kind of hard to swerve at someone directly in front of you.

Again, I wasn't there, so I don't know if he did step in front of the car, or if it swerved at him. Does anyone here know?

 

[beerslurpy]

This doesnt make sense. If you are in real danger of being hit by a vehicle, killing the driver wont stop it. If you arent in danger, why did you fire?

 

[Biker]

None of it makes sense to me. If I had to guess, I'd say the cop stepped in front of the vehicle as an excuse to shoot. Why? Over some omlettes?
The kids were stupid and the cop trigger happy. I'm sure I'll catch some crap over this post, but before anyone throws a 'cop-basher' jacket on me, go back over my posting history on THR - you'll never find an instance of me bashing cops in any way, shape or form.
This shooting stinks to high heaven.

Biker

 

[Art Eatman]

"...discussion will be limited to the Alexandria VA. Police Department's policy for shooting at moving vehicles."

Since there's been darned little of this, enuf's enuf.

Art