COPS and Hollowpoints

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ExtremeDooty

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I just watched a Cops episode with a Cops wearing a dew rag (maybe that's duh rag) rousted a kid on a bike with a handgun. First the revolver had San Francisco P.D. engraved on it. Then the cop realized that it was loaded with hollowpoints which are designed to penetrate "standard vests." Sounded like he was trying to say Cop killer.

How did a P.D. gun get into the hands of a kid on a bike?

I'm no expert on ammunition, but I have heard this hollowpoint being a cop killer round before. A lot of people here in Michigan switch from HP to FMJ during the winter because the HP's might not penetrate all the down jackets worn here, but this cop thinks they're designed to penetrate vests.

Do you think some of these people just don't know much about ammunition, or are they just trying to make anti gun statements whenever possible? This episode was from N.Y.
 
I must say, HP's will definitely penetrate your "standard vest", as it is a tailored piece made of 100% cotton twill or some other stylish fabric.

Now, kevlar.... mmmmmnah.
 
I think they are just repeating what they heard somewhere and are just plain ignorant about firearms and ammo.
Its not uncommon for some people (LEO's) to not know squat about firearms. Especially in large cities.
 
Some anit-gun groups were at one time saying that Nyclad hollow points, Glasser, and anything moly or Teflon coated can penetrate bulletproof vests. This might haver been what the officer was thinking.
 
Yeah.

Cops are a reflection of the general population that they serve. Some are Pro. Some are Anti. Some shoot a lot. Some shoot only a little. Some know stuff about guns, some don't. This trend will vary a lot by region. Pro-gun, rural south? Probably pro gun, well-informed cops. Big city, NE, generally anti area? The percentage of 'gunnies' will be a lot less.

And, as with people in general, the ones who know the least are often the ones with the biggest mouths. ;)

Mike
 
Coronach nailed it.

By the way, it's a 'do rag (as in, "Mabel, you got a new hair-do!")

pax
 
Here in NJ where hollowpoints are explicitly banned (Can buy and have in home and even shoot at the range. You just can't carry HP in the gun you already can't conceal) they are commonly thought to be AP 'cop killer' bullets.
 
A couple of old "Cops" episodes, from Philadelphia, IIRC, featured one of their more entertaining street cops, good humored, street wise, and with many service stripes. They found a Tec 9 on one of their stops, loaded with "cop killer bullets", the kind coated with Nylon, which caused them to slip right between the fiber of a Kevlar vest. Other than that little session, this LEO was impressive in how he handled himself and his contacts. I can't say I lost all of my respect for him at that point, but he did show that even some of the better, smarter, street-wise LEOs can fall for the "urban legends".
 
I don't really watch the show, but I'm guessing that many (not all) of the police on the show suddenly feel a need to act really knowledgable and tough. Silly things start coming out of their mouths. You know, like when Barney Fife started expounding on a subject.
Ya see, Andy, these hollow points here are designed to slip right through kevlar. Now the common man thinks that the increased surface area would make it go Splat, or be no more effective than a FMJ, but that's just not the case. Then thar are Cop killer bullets.
When the camera is on you, stick with what you know.
 
How did a P.D. gun get into the hands of a kid on a bike?
Click to expand...

Back in the good 'ole days when a department switched over to another firearm (revolver to semi's in particular) their old side arms would be sold to the public by distributers retailors etc. It's pretty easy to accept that one or more found their way into a pawn shop in NY or thereabouts
 
Back in the good 'ole days when a department switched over to another firearm (revolver to semi's in particular) their old side arms would be sold to the public by distributers retailors etc. It's pretty easy to accept that one or more found their way into a pawn shop in NY or thereabouts
Click to expand...

Same in CA - they used to sell their old guns to the public, but I think our buddy Gray Davis put a stop to that. This kid probably stole it from someone who bought it legit.
 
Oooo-kay. Liberal gun myth #1: Hollowpoints are cop-killing nuclear death-bullets designed to pierce body armor.

Untrue. Hollowpoints are designed to expand upon impact and transfer the bullet's kinetic energy outward rather than forward. As such, they are much LESS likely to penetrate body armor than FMJ bullets. I know a City of Atlanta officer who once took a .45 Cor-bon dead-center in the chest. He got knocked down and had a hairline fracture in the sternum from the sheer force of the impact, but the bullet did not penetrate.

The whole point of hollowpoint ammunition is that this outward transfer of force increases stopping-power and reduces the possibility of the bullet passing through the body and out the other side, thus preventing it from continuing on its trajectory and injuring third parties. Hollowpoints are also less likely to penetrate walls and strike your neighbors.

If you want something to penetrate body armor, you need a high-velocity round, like a .223. Hollowpoint pistol rounds won't do it. This just shows a real lack of knowledge on the officer's part.

Speaking of which, does anyone know exactly why NJ bans hollowpoint ammo? Personally, if I had to take a bullet, I'd want it to be a hollowpoint. I'd stand a much higher chance of survival.
 
What about tubular rounds, sometimes referred to as "cookie cutter" rounds? I had some of those a few years back and they were a tubular bullet, dull/sharp on the leading edge. They were propelled by a nylon insert packed behind them. The guy who sold them to me said that they open a wound channel that is irrepairable but I doubt it.

There are those who say that they will penetrate a vest and that the PD uses them against vested suspects.

Any truth?
 
The same people that glean firearms knowledge and police procedure from shows like COPS, also glean legal knowledge and court procedures from shows like Judge Judy. They also gain insight into personal relationships via viewing Jerry Springer or Will and Grace.

the PD uses them against vested suspects.
Click to expand...
jimpeel,
I'd be real suspicious of that. Why use something weird when you have a .223 at your disposal?
 
Hm, did some research and found THIS which states that it is true that the thing will penetrate some vests. They are made as the PMC ULTRAMAG and are only made in .38 Special (what I had) and .44 Special. They have been banned in CA due to their vest penetration characteristics. CA is where I bought them.

They are also listed HERE as armor piercing.

They are also obsolete.

There is a test firing report at http://www.ammolab.com/38spcl_-1.htm on these as well as other rounds.
 
Another thing to consider is the rating of the vest. There's IIA, III and IIIA with some more tactical and Jail vests thrown in. A vest should a least be rated to stop your carry weapons round because some are shot with thier own weapon in a take away situation. There are ballistic plate inserts for the front carrier for heavier weapons and larger higher rated ballistic types to stop larger or higher velocity rounds. The larger/higher rated stuff makes you feel and look like the michelen man and is not practical for everyday use. A vest won't make you superman.
 
Hollowpoint .223 or 7.62x39 will go through a level II or IIIA vest easily. So will the hollowpoint rounds from the Fiveseven or P90. Level III or IV vests will stop them all cold, so basing 'cop killer' status on whether they will penetrate a vaguely worded 'vest' without specifying what NIJ threat level is misleading.

Pretty much anything will penetrate a PASGT flak vest. So your .22s are COPKILLERS now!
 
Just because you have a blue, brown, green or that mustard yellow, like y'all down yonder, polyester uniform does not mean you automatically know anything about firearms. As a general rule, cops cannot be expected to have the knowledge of the average THR member. Many reasons for this--it was New York, police training does not have time and money, he was tired and wanted to make a point about how dangerous it was in tH3 str337z, inter alia.

The cops that possess a heightened knowledge regarding firearms are likely to have that knowledge coming in. In many of the larger departments on the East and West Coast, these people are screened out as "Rambos" or "cowboys." Remember, the sheep cannot tell the difference between the sheep dogs and the wolves. The cops that have superior firearms knowledge will likely gravitate toward instruction or the SRT and be less likely to be on the beat, especially in larger jurisdictions.

To many LEOs, firearms are just gear for the job and fighting an unintentional by-product. When I was in LE I paid my own way for all my training in firearms and H2H. My co-workers thought I was daft but they remained as ignorant as your cop on television.
 
A lot of people here in Michigan switch from HP to FMJ during the winter because the HP's might not penetrate all the down jackets worn here, but this cop thinks they're designed to penetrate vests.
Click to expand...
down filling won't expand a hollowpoint. fluids do. most likely, the hollowpoint will clog up with the filling and it will act like a FMJ.

check out the pics in this article. the article stated that of the bullets that expanded, they didn't do so until reaching the water jugs.



http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119005&highlight=clothing
 
Sounds like some believer's graduated from The
David Keen* Institute Of Technology.

*FootNote: the NASA guru who developed ""Black
Rhino" and Rhino ammunition. It was touted as
"Cop Killer" ammunition, before it was banned.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
 
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