Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Courage under fire: Amish girls

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by yy, Oct 6, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. yy

    yy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    372
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    This is an important epilogue to the thread about christianity and its reaction to violence.

    I am a Buddhist and I endorse the Christian message of forgiveness and compassion. I am willing to forego further evidence and praise the older girls for putting themselves into harms way to save the younger girls (to live even for a moment longer). It takes a lot of inner strength to not hate your enemy while saving your loved ones.

    _Blindly_ fighting violence with violence leads to an unending arms race. For all its appearance of quick result (expedience), violent response fails to solve violent acts in the long run. This chafes. A lot.

    It comes down to how much like a saint we each want to live (or end) our lives. I'll likely protect my loved ones with violence. I guess that makes me very far from saintliness, however just.

    See this article:

    Amish girl asked to be shot first, woman says

    PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - One of the girls who died in Pennsylvania's Amish schoolhouse massacre asked the killer to shoot her first in an apparent bid to save younger girls, a woman who spoke to the victim's family said on Friday.

    ADVERTISEMENT

    Rita Rhoads, a nurse-midwife who delivered 13-year-old Marian Fisher as well as another victim, said Fisher appealed to Charles Carl Roberts to shoot her first because she thought it might allow younger girls to survive.

    Rhoads said she did not know whether Fisher in fact was shot first. Roberts shot 10 girls aged 6 to 13, killing five of them and then himself in Monday's rampage.

    Fisher's 11-year-old sister, Barbie, appealed to Roberts to shoot her next, Rhoads said. Barbie survived and was in Children's Hospital of Philadelphia recovering from shoulder, hand and leg injuries.

    "Barbie has been talking and she said Marian said, 'Shoot me first,"' Rhoads said. "Apparently what she was trying to do was to save the younger girls."

    Barbie, who attended her sister's funeral on Thursday before returning to the hospital, gave details of her ordeal to relatives including her grandfather, who told Rhoads, the midwife told Reuters in a telephone interview.

    "It was very courageous of the girls to offer themselves," Rhoads said. "God was really present to give the girls that kind of courage."

    Pennsylvania state police were not immediately available for comment.

    Roberts, 32, a local non-Amish milk truck driver, attacked the one-room schoolhouse at Nickel Mines, a farming community in Lancaster County about 60 miles west of Philadelphia.

    He allowed boys and adults to leave and then tied the legs of the girls before shooting them execution-style, police said.

    Four of the girls including Marian Fisher were buried on Thursday and a fifth funeral was scheduled for Friday.

    The Amish, descendants of Swiss-German settlers, are a traditionalist Christian denomination who place particular importance on the Gospel message of forgiveness. They believe in nonviolence, simple living and little contact with the modern world.
     
  2. knuckles

    knuckles Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    Central, FL
    I have a 13-year old daughter...I can't even imagine... :(
     
  3. tellner

    tellner member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Oregon
    To lay down your life for your companions without hope of rescue, reward or survival. That takes courage beyond measure. My own religion requires that "If someone comes to kill you rise up and kill him first". My wife's allows for vengeance although mercy is preferred. We were reduced to tears by her courage and faith.

    Marian Fisher enters the roll of heroes. Whether she ends up next to the Throne as a martyr or at Odin's table in Valhalla - because she died more bravely in battle than most soldiers - her place is assured.
     
  4. gunsmith

    gunsmith member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2003
    Messages:
    5,906
    Location:
    Reno, Nevada
    The next time

    Rosie o dimbulb rants about Christians being no different then Taliban
    I will remember this article.
     
  5. tellner

    tellner member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Oregon
    Some are, some aren't. Yeshua ben Maryam's followers can be just as evil as any long-bearded small-brained mullah. And please don't insult either of us by saying they aren't "real" Christians while the Talibanis are "real" Muslims. The urge to evil exists in all of us regardless of what building we go to for religious services.

    And so, Baruch Hashem, does the urge to good as we see in the beautiful example of this girl.
     
  6. mike101

    mike101 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2006
    Messages:
    1,443
    Location:
    SOUTH Jersey
    There ought to be a special allowance for a Congressional Medal for this little girl.

    The Amish probably wouldn't approve, though. It's a shame.

    The word "Hero", is bandied about a little too often these days, I think. But if this girl isn't a hero, there is no such thing. :(
     
  7. dfaugh

    dfaugh Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,994
    Its things like this that give me hope that the world my children have to live in, will be a better place.

    Heroes are often "ordinary people" caught in extraordinary circumstances.

    This beautiful soul looked Evil in the eye, and refused to allow it to intimidate her.

    Rest in peace, sweet child......


    "No one has the answer, but one thing is true.
    You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you.
    You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide,
    you've got to go in after it, and never be denied.
    Time is running out...Let's roll.
    Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love.
    We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove.
    Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth.
    Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."


    part of a Neil Young song ("Let's Roll") as a tribute to Todd Beamer, the crew and all the passengers of Flight 93.
     
  8. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2004
    Messages:
    2,410
    Location:
    Farmington, AR
    Adding to the tragedy and obscuring the true heroism of these girls, the antis will have no problem dancing in their blood. This example of true pacifism in action and the subsequent actions of the Amish families in expressing their forgiveness to the widow and family of the perp will be lost. The pseudo-pacifists who want everyone else's tools for self-defense confiscated will turn this to their political advantage, and the true beauty of "turning the other cheek" will be obscured. :banghead:
     
  9. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2005
    Messages:
    6,380
    Location:
    Garrettsville, Oh.
    I have insufficient words.

    I have not the words needed to describe whar I am feeling as I read this. A young woman stared into the blackness of evil and death, but had the courage and personal conviction and faith to not let it overwhelm her. She, in fact, was far more brave than I may ever be.

    My heart goes out to the families involved.
     
  10. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    10,696
    Location:
    Rocky River, Ohio
    I wish one of them had stabbed him in the eye with a protractor when he was distracted...
     
  11. tellner

    tellner member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2004
    Messages:
    2,104
    Location:
    Oregon
    sacp, that's not the sole province of people you disagree with. Already the pros have been revving up the political noise machine, dancing in the blood of the murdered (to use your analogy) and calling for arming everyone in sight. It's just as vile a way of scoring political points off the victims. There's something one of your heroes said a while back about beams and splinters.

    Let the dead rest in peace. Honor their courage. Admire their faith. But please, just this once, don't use them as tools to further a partisan political agenda.
     
  12. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    47,953
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    Well said tellner.
     
  13. phoglund

    phoglund Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2004
    Messages:
    777
    Location:
    The Bozone
    I am not myself a religious man. The hypocricy of the majority of religious leaders and practicioners does not lend itself to belief in the tenents of any religion. These girls however demonstrated the potential of faith to make the world a better place. If even half the believers in the many religions of the world were to practice their faith with just half the integrity these girls showed in the most dire of circumstances we would have a world of much greater peace and safety. They should be honored by all. Honor also belongs to their parents and religious leaders for raising such children. All who are believers only in word and not deed or thought must now stand in shame of their hypocricy. The Amish community as a whole also deserves our greatest respect for the quiet dignity with which they are weathering this storm. We all have lessons we can learn from them. I feverently hope we learn them well.

    - phoglund
     
  14. utahminirevolver

    utahminirevolver Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2003
    Messages:
    182
    yy

    These girls showed a lot of courage while standing by their beliefs about forgiveness and non-violence. They were admirable.

    There is nonetheless a quote from a Buddhist which has a lot of truth:
    "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun" -His Holiness, the XIV Dalai Lama.

    One of my favorite saints (and I'm not a Catholic) is Saint Gabriel Possenti from whom we can learn the virtues of arming oneself while going about the daily business of life.

    I really like the simple, hardworking country lifestyle of the Amish, but also of Sgt. York, from the hills in Tennessee, a Christian who really had to wrestle with his conscience about being in WW1, but finally decided to go fight and became a war hero.
     
  15. Glockfan.45

    Glockfan.45 member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    1,369
    Location:
    Democratic Peoples Republic of Illinois
    My respect for the Amish has increased ten-fold. Hearing about the courage of these girls, and the Amish setting up a fund for the shooters family. I will admit I teared up a little when I heard about the older girls offering to sacrifice themselves for the younger ones. What a wonderful place the world would be if we all took a lesson from them.
     
  16. SuperNaut

    SuperNaut Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,738
    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    I hate to be a wet blanket but similar stories came out after Columbine and they turned out to be completely false. Personally I'll wait for some more corroboration.
     
  17. knuckles

    knuckles Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    Central, FL
    With as close knit as that community is, that may not be forthcoming....
     
  18. rudolf

    rudolf Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2005
    Messages:
    354
    gunsmith wrote:

    "The next time Rosie o dimbulb rants about Christians being no different then Taliban I will remember this article."

    The Taliban would rape them first, then kill them.

    My respect to the Amish girls.
     
  19. Shootcraps

    Shootcraps Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,007
    What they did was just amazing. A true example of "faith".

    A friend at work said, "Can you imagine the counseling those survivors are going to need for the rest of their life?".

    I said I bet that won't be necessary. All of their questions will be answered by their faith.
     
  20. yy

    yy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    372
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Well said,

    UtahMiniRevolver:

    That's a good quote from HHDL. Still, I struggle with the balance between compassion and the need to stop murderers. A big fantasy is to call down a bolt of lightening on a would-be murderer and instantaneously change his mind to one of peace and harmony. The reality is I'll have to settle for not hating while I pull my trigger. (this assumes I have no chance of talking the murderer down).

    Heck, even The Buddha (as prince Sidharta) had full martial training before setting out to seek enlightenment. Self protection is a requirement. compassion and service to all, now that's an aspiration.

    The greater compassion is *being ready to* lay down my life trying to let my action affect the murderous. This was what the Buddha did to stop a rampaging elephant and a mad killer on two separate occasions. He had the ability to calm an elephant so he did not flee. He had the ability to avoid every knife thrust so he did not flee. His skills _plus_ his attitude of calm compassion stopped murders/maimings without hatred or acts of violence.

    I wish I could be so pious/saintly as that Amish girl. One day.




    Oh, Supernaut, I urge you to apply your intellect on the scant available data. I put to you that the sentiment of a young simple girl willing to offer herself to protect her younger sisters rings true, and that that should lead to conclusions of truth rather than hoax. (BTW, to which hoaxes do you refer? And how were they exposed? please pm me or maybe we could start another thread)

    I understand that you are repeating the oft-said "don't believe everything you read" and cautioning against the tendency to make saints of the slain. Still, I'm sure you recognize the act of a true pacifist in the report. I can see a kid who was so busy saving her younger sister that she did not have the time or inclination to hate the murderer.

    Yes, she ended up dead. But such courage is worthy of praise. I would like to see such courage in myself. And in my kid. So I praise the courage. (incidentally, this is why I detest the hollywood writers that slander heros with cowardice in their films. I suspect they do this because they are cowards and cannot see heroism in others.)
     
  21. SuperNaut

    SuperNaut Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,738
    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    Two spring immediately to mind:

    That either Dylan or Eric first designed a DOOM video game level that allowed them to perform dry run practices of their attack on the school which was utterly false. Also that Cassie Bernall was shot for saying "yes" that she believed in god also turned out to be utterly false.

    Everyone here is quick to say that the MSM is full of it, I don't know why this instance is exempt.
     
  22. knuckles

    knuckles Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    Central, FL
    Clarification for my own ignorant ass; what is 'MSM'?
     
  23. SuperNaut

    SuperNaut Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,738
    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    Main Stream Media
     
  24. Keith Wheeler

    Keith Wheeler Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    692
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Hazak V' Amatz.
     
  25. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    13,233
    Location:
    Richmond, Virginia
    "Everyone here is quick to say that the MSM is full of it, I don't know why this instance is exempt."

    Why? Because you have an eyewitness telling it to her relatives, including her grandfather. The grandfather tells it to a respected long-time member of the community (check out her accomplishments on her website - she's a Mennonite and has a site.)

    So we have a group of Amish - family members in fact - and a Mennonite friend involved - two groups widely known for their truthfulness and honesty.

    That's why.

    John

    "Barbie, who attended her sister's funeral Thursday before returning to the hospital, gave details of her ordeal to relatives including her grandfather, who told Rhoads, the midwife said in a telephone interview."
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page