To Christian Gun Owners: Why do you disagree with the Amish position?

[critter]

If it is my time to go, I know I will go. However, I want to make 100% SURE it IS my time to go and that time IS NOT DECIDED by some POS with a gun.

And who knows! I just may meet somebody and it is HIS time to go!

 

[bigun15]

If God wants me to die, he will do it in a way that will work.

 

[Old Fuff]

I don't disagree with the Amish position, although it is not one that I would choose.

In my view they, and their community have a right to believe whatever they want, and be secure in their beliefs.

They will I think, work this out among themselves, and whatever way they go I would be supportive - because I have no right to impose my beliefs and/or positions on them. Nowhere is it written that what I believe is better that which they do, it is simply different.

This is a time that Christians should stand together, not split apart. It is not the Amish that are evil.

 

[romma]

God Can Move Mountains

but bring a shovel! <<< The irony of this guy!

 

[usp9]

I do not believe for one second that if an Amish man's child were being molested in his sight, he would not stop the attack. The method and tools of stopping the attack are the question. The Amish have strong beliefs that govern their outlook, that are different from mine. They take the step of seperating themselves from the secular world around them

My use of a handgun to defend myself stems more from recognising that as I age I become more of the prey to the preditor. Using whatever means at your disposal, a father in most cases, will defend to his death, his children...especially from such monsters as we saw this week. Even Jesus mentions that children are special and anyone harming them gets His special attention. I believe Him.

The other question is simple: Is taking a life while defending yourself murder, a thou shall not? Our Judeo Christian legal system says no. As christians we are encouraged to obey the law. If it is legal to defend oneself, then one is not breaking a Christian teaching.

 

[fiVe]

I think Deathrider1579 & Sistema1927 summed it up well.

I will not allow anyone or anything violate the covenant I have with Mrs. fiVe.

Christianity does not equal weakness.

 

[redneck2]

If God wants me to die, he will do it in a way that will work.

For the most part, God doesn't get involved the live and die thing. Free will and all that. This is where the "kill them all and let God sort it out" is actually correct. If some POS whacks you in the head, it's not because God was behind it. God condemns the POS and you ride in Heaven (assuming you did the right things).

Now, the whole New Testament, Old Testament....

IMO, the one most telling thing was when the Pharasees were carping on Jesus about defiling the Law. Something to the effect "I came to fulfill the Law, not replace it"

There's a reason Bibles have the Old and New Testament.

 

[taliv]

effeminent != pacifist

not even close

 

[ALHunter]

M249 - Nice reference to the FSP. Not many know if his abundant blessings of a good trigger finger.

 

[mp510]

I'm Roman Catholic. I have no problem with hunting or fishing, and actively particiapte in both. Killing an animal isn't a problem, an animal isn't a person, and God gave man dominion over the animals (and plants). I have no problem with killing a person in self defense. IIRC, in Bible, it mentions the importance of self preservation, though some may cite passages dictating the contrary (live by the sword, die by the sword). Basically, my position is that "Though shalt not kill" is about killing people for pleasure, or non necesity. I also believe that war is acceptable, as long as it is for just cause, such as liberation, removal of tyrants, or preserving innocent life, and stuff of that sort.

While the Church opposed the invasion of Iraq, the Pope also said that it was possible for Catholics to, in good faith, believe it to be the right thing to do. I know of a now deceased Catholic priest that owned a handgun. And the father of my church said, while talking about the negatives of abortion and killing, that it would be stupid to not fight back, and possibly kill, somebody who is putting your life in imminent danger (he said that in his homily).

 

[Doug.38PR]

the way I see it is that no you don't fear death as Christian, but you fight because you love life and you are commanded to preserve and cherish it. I like the comment of Stonewall Jackson's character in the movie "Gods and Generals" where he is ask after the battle of First Manassas (where he earned the name Stonewall) how he can be so calm in battle. He simply replies, "my religious belief teaches me that I must be as calm in battle as I am in bed. God has planned the time of my death, I need not worry about that. If all men would live as such, then all men would be equally brave."

Turn the other Cheek is talking about vengence. It's a matter of the heart. There is a difference between vengence and justice and self defense. I remind fellow believers who think Jesus was a feminine pacifist with a lisp to his voice, he was the one that drove men out of the Temple with a whip and turned over tables single handed. Why didn't the stop him? Because he would have given them a whoopin'! He saved a woman (prostitute) from essentially a lynch mob. He did this without having to use physical violence, but his presence was enough to take command and bring wisdom into the situation. Roman soldiers thoughout the New Testament were NEVER commanded to leave the army once they converted. In fact they are commended on several occasions. God commands his people to go to war all throughout the Old Testament (and there are rules of just warfare to be used against the surrounding nations S&E Cannan). He even allows people to kill in defense of home and property and says "they are not guilty of bloodshed (muder)." Surely He would not command his people to do something that was contrary to His character.

Christianity, throughout the history of the Church, has never been a pacifist religion. True there are historical sects like the Amish who take these postions but they are a small minority. There is a balance of justice and mercy in it that is consistant with God's character as shown in his Word.

 

[redneck2]

Though shalt not kill"

Proper translation is "Thou shall not murder" (lie in wait to take the life of an innocent).

As with many things in the Bible, there are several problems.

1) The translation is insufficient or incorrect as applied to our language

2) Many things are parables or metaphores

3) There are references to things, names, meanings as they were then and not now.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I always liked what the Catechism of the Catholic Church said concerning self-defence. Basically it is summarized as:

"Don't do harm to others, but don't stand there like a dumbass if they try and harm you. "

Not as eloquent as John Paul II, but much more concise

 

[GEM]

To me the Amish position is to be respected and envied. It is the high ground of moral positions. BTW, I'm not a Christian but the issue is whether their position is philosophically defensible - and it is.

“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?” - Matthew 26:52-54

Scripture has everything anyone wants for most positions. One uses your brain and mind to decide what you think is the correct way to act in this world. If the Amish feel it is the will of God to act the way they do - more power to them. If you use your intelligence to reason to act a different way, that is your choice and it is is your reason as compared to parsing scripts of unknown actual validity that should determine your actions.

We have certainly changed our behavior from strict adherence to Scripture in many venues. I find the Amish most admirable as compared to most.

 

[MechAg94]

I believe the Bible also says something to the effect of: Those who harm the children should be tied to a millstone pulled by an @$$ and thrown in the ocean far from shore.
My pastor used it in discussing child abuse. I think it was in one of Peter's books. I'll have to find it at some point.

 

[History Prof]

I cannot add to the positions that have already been presented. I will say that I am an armed Evangelical Christian, and I do not fault the Amish for their interpretation. I still expect to see the Amish victims in heaven when I get there.

Commenting on what has already been said, I would add that even though the KJV is considered the best translation, it is not perfect, and our athiest friend Stiletto Null is right. The most appropriate context in modern plain English is Do Not Murder.

In debating translations with one of those KJV ONLY type people, a friend of mine (a surfer dude) said to him "God speaks Dude! He reached me, didn't he?"

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Christ said if someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other. He did not say, if someone rapes and kills your wife, deliver to him your daughter so he can do likewise to her.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the section on Social Order:

1909 Finally, the common good requires peace, that is, the stability and security of a just order. It presupposes that authority should ensure by morally acceptable means the security of society and its members. It is the basis of the right to legitimate personal and collective defense.

And from the section on Legitimate defense:

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:


If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

As for schools, school officials have a duty to protect the children entrusted to them -- even to risking their own lives, if necessary. If any teacher or school official is not willing to accept this duty, let them seek work in some other field.

 

[eastwood44mag]

Thou shalt not test the Lord, thy God.

If I'm going to die today, then I'm going to die. BUT, don't expect me to just lay down and die. God helps those who help themselves, and if you sit around, waiting for a miracle to happen, refusing to take any action yourself, then you've missed the point.

"Thou shalt not murder" is not equivalent to "thou shalt not kill." Don't confuse the two.

 

[mnrivrat]

I respect the rights of others to decide what is best for them.

I'll let the Amish decide what they believe is right, and they can live or die with the peace of mind that brings to them.

 

[neoncowboy]

1. Life, human life, is the most precious thing in all creation. It is the crowning jewel of God's creation and worth any sacrifice (including the sacrificial death of his Son, Jesus) to preserve, secure and safeguard.

2. Men are created in the image of God, to be like God. It is only in Christ that we realize this potential. God is cast as a peaceful, loving, gentle, kind Father most of the time. He is also a mighty warrior, wielding a sword and the ultimate conqueror. Fire and brimstone of judgment and wrath are every bit as much 'godly' as grace and peace.

3. Jesus, who came as a Lamb to be slaughtered for our sins, will return as a warrior to destroy those opposed to him.

It's my belief that our Amish friends have idealized one particular facet of Christ and elevated it to a position above the other facets of Christ. That to mimic the humility and gentility of Jesus...remianing silent as they are beaten and killed, is somehow superior to defending oneself (as David did). That's not uncommon, especially in people who believe it is somehow more righteous to ride in a horse drawn buggy and live in a house with no electricity than to enjoy the God given conveniences of modern America.

Whatever, the Amish are not a 'standard of righteousness' that we all have to look toward to gauge our holiness.

I am fairly biblically literate and don't see any biblical prohibition against actively preserving the life that God gave me and the lives that He has given to my care. In fact, I see that as one of my responsibilities.

Armed, righteous men have been an instrument that God has used to do some of His greatest work on planet Earth.

Check out Revelation 19:11 and one of my favorites, Psalm 18, which reads (in part):

For who is God, except Yahweh? Who is a rock, besides our God,

32 the God who arms me with strength, and makes my way perfect?

33 He makes my feet like deer's feet, and sets me on my high places.

34 He teaches my hands to war, so that my arms bend a bow of bronze.

35 You have also given me the shield of your salvation. Your right hand sustains me. Your gentleness has made me great.

36 You have enlarged my steps under me, My feet have not slipped.

37 I will pursue my enemies, and overtake them. Neither will I turn again until they are consumed.

38 I will strike them through, so that they will not be able to rise. They shall fall under my feet.

39 For you have girded me with strength to the battle. You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.

 

[mljdeckard]

Someone beat me to it, "Faith in God can move mountains, but don't be surprised if God hands you a shovel." Every day we see miracles that come about by the grace of God through the sweat of man. If I train my whole life, carry a gun for many years, and prevent one innocent person from being killed, that person and their family can thank God because He happened to put me in that place at that time.

Brigham Young said, when addressing concerns of Utah settlers dealing with native Americans, "Pray always, but keep your powder dry." To me, this means, yes God will help you. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't do everything you can on your own to protect yourself.

edit- I have nothing but respect for the Amish philosophy and lifestyle, and I truly hope that this incident doesn't shake their faith.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I respect the rights of others to decide what is best for them.

I'll let the Amish decide what they believe is right, and they can live or die with the peace of mind that brings to them.

So do I. But there are three issues here:

1. Their right to decide for themselves -- they certainly have that right.

2. Their right to decide for other, helpless people in their care -- such as the children who died. I'm not sure they have that right.

3. Their right to decide for me. They don't have that right.

 

[Doug.38PR]

When Peter drew the sword, Christ didn't tell him to throw it away, he said to put it away in it's place (back in the scabbard). He was the one who told him and another to take a bag, a purse and sell their cloak and buy a sword in preparation for the ministry they would soon be embarking on to spread the gospel to the four corners of the earth. Sounded like their ministry was not going be confined to local Judeah, but the world. When he said whoever draws the sword will die by the sword, he wasn't condemning defense or the sword itself, but rather the way it is used. We don't LIVE by the sword, we live by the word of God and trust in him. We don't spread the word through violence and destruction.

Man this is a hot topic. Since I posted it only 2 hours ago it has spawned 47 responses

 

[neoncowboy]

I also trust God for His provision, yet I rejoice in work and labor and the ambition and inspiration (that flows from Him) to succeed.

And I trust God for my health, but make healthy diet and lifestyle choices.

I trust God to bring me through the air safely (I'm a pilot), but train hard for contingencies and make wise aeronautical decisions to mitigate as much risk as possible.

Our minds and bodies that God gave us are key instruments in doing his work here on Earth.

 

[snewbie]

"Turn the other cheek" to me means do not commit acts of revenge. It doesnt mean that if I see the fist comming that I cant step out of the way or block it.


Mat 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.


Mat 26:46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.


Mat 26:47 ¶ And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.


Mat 26:48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.


Mat 26:49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.


Mat 26:50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.


Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out [his] hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.




Reading the 3 earlier verses(Matthew 26:52-54) in context will show that Jesus was talking about letting biblical prophecy(his death) be fulfilled.
In other words, then(not always) was not the time for the use of weopons. Jesus willfully let himself be captured.