Discussion in 'Hunting' started by leadcounsel, Jul 29, 2015.
So tell me at what point you realized this lion was wearing a collar.
That is the $64 question. It is a question that may begin to be answered through a successful social media campaign and end with successful political activism to convince the U.S. Government to intercede. The history of the United States is filled with examples of money being raised from millions of small contributions and politicians seeking the good will of the electorate to save one thing or another simply because of the pleasure of having it in the World. Another source of revenue would be the elimination of U.S. government funding for one or two F-35s so that the money could be used for conservation and management. I am sure African governmental officials could be enticed to accept money for this if other enticements were provided, one of which would be increased revenues from eco-tourism.
With an animal whose appearance is as well known a Cecil why would you need a collar to identify him? More importantly why would you risk the mistake of misidentification by baiting for a lion so close to the well known area that Cecil inhabited? Did you notice the very visible ring of indentation around his neck caused by the collar? Look at your own video.
The property owner did not have a permit for Lion on his hunting quota for 2015.
Of course we have no clue if the "hunter" knew this or not.
(and I use that term hunter loosely as per his past transgressions)
From the latest "News" that no one trusts..
The property owner and the PH were released on bail today.
You didn't answer my question.
And Cecil looks different from other lions his age how, exactly???
Yes, I did. Once he got within 10ft and turned, it was plain to see the black collar around his black mane.
Cut the crap. You're not here because he may have illegally killed a famous park lion. You're here because of your issue with trophy hunting in general. Cecil is just an excuse to vent your vitriol about trophy hunting, on the hunting forum.
Looks like the dentists ability to finance his poaching operations may be diminished.
The wounded lion was found and killed shot with a gun some 40 hours after being hit with the arrow.
I answered your question: "Did you notice the very visible ring of indentation around his neck caused by the collar? Look at your own video." If you don't thing individual Lions can be identified as individuals by appearance you have not looked at enough of them. Cecil being well know and seen in person and in the press is recognizable by many people. Anyone hunting anywhere near his habitat not becoming aware of his appearance is a fool or a fraud.
Please provide any and all information that you have on sport hunting of apes?
while you are at it please provide some credible information on the current sport hunting of tigers?
The last time you decried the hunting of elephants you linked a chart that shows the rapid depletion of Asian elephants. A species that has not been legally sport hunted in 60 years or so.
While the wild Asian elephant is rapidly disappearing the African elephant was flourishing and growing rapidly in numbers in every single country that allowed managed sport hunting. At the same time the African elephant was disappearing every place that does not allow manged hunting. Hmmm? How could that be? While your little buddies at PETA scream and insult and stamp their feet and make death threats the very thing they cherish is being whipped out in areas that follow their anti hunting doctrine.
Tigers. Legal sport hunting of tigers was stopped in Asia back in the late 60's and early 70's. By your metric tiger populations should be overflowing and healthy and tigers living free unencumbered lives were evil man leaves them alone and they can be free to be tigers. WHOOPS there are less tigers today than there were when they were being legally hunted. I wonder why that is? Hmmm? Something to do with tigers having no intrinsic value to the local population and complete lack of management and a massive loss of habitat due to human encroachment would be my guess. Land that would have otherwise remained open if it were not for cessation of hunting.
Please feel free disregard any and everything you seen here that does not directly support your opinion. I expect nothing less from you. But you did say that you believe National Geographic. So please read these articles and then feel free to disregard them too as neither supports your anti hunting, anti conservation message.
I asked "when"?
If he was outside the park, it really doesn't matter. You're not here to crucify the dentist for Cecil, you're here to condemn ALL "trophy hunting".
Hmmm, imagine that!
Come on man... Its not me or you wondering around the savanna with our trusty arrow launcher without a guide or anything.
This was a well known lion to the locals.. His Pro Hunter was a local as were the rest of the hired help, they knew the lions territory...
So you are going to ASS-U-ME that it would be easy to recognize this lion from all the other lions in the area???
Again, at what point did you realize the lion was wearing a collar?
I'm sorry but I just don't understand what all this fuss is about. More importantly, why are we arguing and name calling amongst ourselves? I've been off the forum for awhile. Had other life priorities. I come back and we're just playing Conservative vs. Liberal on a micro scale. I will openly admit that when I first became a member here I too engaged in some rather heated debates and got called to the carpet by the mods.....And I learned.
Personally I have no desire to hunt big cats or pachyderms. But I don't begrudge those that do. Their money, their desires, their choice. leadcounsel and X-Rap are very passionate about these animals. That much is obvious. One lion or elephant killed is too many in their minds. You all might as well just let them be. We/you won't change their minds. And ad hominem arguments surely won't help the situation on either side. Set the emotion on both sides aside and focus on facts. But don't tell someone they are stupid then expect them to give a damn about the facts you're presenting to them. Surely there's more wisdom here than to think that's going to work.
I too have a whole lot of suspicion about this incident. And I can see both sides of the coin and the argument. And when I first heard about the story I was as mad as lead and X. But I also realize that the government as well as the media fabricate and bend truth to not only get ratings but also public support for their underlying agendas. Today you don't have to prove truth. Making a false or inaccurate accusation is far easier and just as effective. Then later you just say your sorry and everyone forgives you and moves on to the next crisis in the world.
Let's see what the facts are when they come out. This Dr. apparently poached a bear once. Ok. Shame on him. But didn't he pay his debt? Maybe he learned his lesson and tried to do it right this time and his PH is to blame. Now this guy is at home trying to figure out why this is happening to him. Because in his mind he did everything leagally. I don't know about all of you, but I wasn't always the straightest shooter. But I screwed my head on straight. On the other hand, maybe he's just a rich poacher with a blood lust. Who knows? No one here does. Not yet anyways.
I would appreciate it if you refrained from a social media campaign to spend my taxes to the United States of America in Africa.
Especially to "African government officials" whom I consider more likely to use it for self aggrandizement than wildlife programs.
Since you assume you can read my mind to determine my motives for posting you are making an ass-outa-u-not-me. Please don't resort to the unsophisticated and demagogic debating tactic of implying insincere motive to discredit opinions you wish to suppress.
"At what point did you realize the lion was wearing a collar" is an absurd question since all we have is a video you provided. Neither you or I was there to positively say the collar could or not be seen, but it is not unreasonable to believe that at the close range a bow hunter would be to his game that evidence of a collar would be visible.
Sorry to be the one to give you the bad news, but your taxes to the United States of America are already being sent to Africa for things far less important, ethical, and beneficial than parks and conservation. I just want to change what those taxes are being used to pay for in Africa. While graft from "African government officials" is probably impossible to prevent, since it is already happening we would not be changing the status quo if we finance parks and conservation.
That wasn't directed at you, smart guy.
You're a fine tap dancer. You a lawyer??? All that crap is basically an admission that you couldn't tell the lion in question was wearing a collar until he was very close. Which proves my point, counselor.
With that logic, we might as well give ISIS a billion dollars to feed the people they have displaced. I mean, there's already terrorism. So let's give them more money to do something good?
I might not check in here often enough, but it seems to have been a long time since a hunting thread grew as quickly as this one has.
The last one I recall was also about trophy hunting and rich people. They always seem to be about that.
As for my people, we always claimed to connect with, or at least believe in the animal's spirit that we hunted. With all animals and plants for that matter. My ancestors always tried to honor the flora and fauna, with and without the taking of the plant or killing of the animal. We named and regarded everything that grew or moved.
My ancestors, I think they were spiritually lost, uneducated hypocrites. The truth is that they trophy hunted like no hunter today ever would or could. They would kill all the bald eagles that were available, just to wear the feathers. They would kill all the coyotes possible, because they believed he was an evil scoundrel. Some of us Native Americans set out to extinguish certain species entirely, because we believed they caused the drought, or the flood, or for whatever crazy reason.
So I don't understand the emotional bleeding hearts who worship the flora and the fauna. This emotionalism falls flat in my sight when it is focused on anything less than genuine human suffering. I don't worship animals, forests, or the stars like my ancestors did so foolishly.
It was a lion. A stupid old cat. There will be another. And I won't mourn his death either.
Only the sufferings of humanity will ever weigh my heart.
It's legal to hunt collared lions in Zim and a bunch of other areas. I don't know who is at fault if anyone but I doubt the dentist wanted to pay 55k for the famous named lion. He probably trusted his PH on the shot? I also doubt the PH recognized the lion as the famous tourist attraction why would he risk his career and freedom for 1 client?
The facts may surface but I suspect the new owner of the repatriated property might not have been truthfull about his lion quota on his new property.
None of this would have even made news if it wasn't a famous named Lion. Pigs, armadillos or raccoons would never have made national news but they haven't been made nearly as famous as the lion.
Just as superior technology can appear to be magic to the unsophisticated, nuanced reasoning can appear to be "tap dancing". Good grief! It most certainly is not an indication, let alone an admission, that you could not tell the lion was wearing a collar until he was very close. It was a educated guess that at bow hunting range it was probable. Here is a question for you. Just how far away do you think the "great white hunter" fearless Dr. Painless was when he loosed his arrow? Have any experience using a bow? I do and you gotta get close but not necessarily as closes as nearest distance shown in your video. Close enough that even a cheap small pair of 8x25 binoculars would provide excellent identification of your game animal and even binos were probably not be needed to ID the collared Cecil.
You are making a erroneous analogy. Zimbabwe is not the same political situation as ISIS controlled Syria/Iraq. Neither are the other nations in Africa that are well known for trophy hunting. The U.S. and other wealthy nations through out history have successfully used money to manipulate the policies of other nations. Besides, all the wild lions in Syria and Iraq were hunted to extinction.
I already provided an example above of exactly how that works out.
It's quite simple, when you think Conservation you apparently are thinking about saving every single individual, so hunting an individual breaks your idea of Conservation. When people like me think about Conservation we are thinking about the species, so removing any small sample of individuals is viable.
So yes, you can save the species by intentionally killing select members of it, and indeed, that often must be done.
And when those people win and the last sport hunters disappear, so will the animals.
Most people who desire to preserve species are not doing so because they are "emotional bleeding hearts".
"There will be another" is often what was said and thought of what are now extinct species.
Since "only the sufferings of humanity will ever weigh (in your) heart", please, please never become the owner of a pet or service animal. The more science learns about the minds of animals the more it becomes apparent they are more intelligent and emotion feeling creatures than was ever believed. Your comments indicate you lack sufficient understanding and empathy to be responsible for humane treatment of an animal.
Done for the night.
Separate names with a comma.