Criminals and firearms

[PlayboyPenguin]

I pose this question because it is something I was thinking about today. I know that most gun crime is committed by non-legal guns. I was curious how most poeple belive these "illegal guns" get into the hands of criminals. Also, could someone post any studies on gun crime and whether the guns were legally owned. The poll is not meant to decide how they get them, just to gauge peoples opinion on how. Them maybe someone who might know some facts can post them to see how peoples opinions match up. It is also not meant to make gun owners or dealers look bad. We all know the vast majority are honorable and responsible people.

 

[Apple a Day]

You left out the real main source: second tier criminals who will do anything for money/drugs including committing straw purchases.

 

[Meplat]

I pose this question because it is something I was thinking about today. I know that most gun crime is committed by non-legal guns. I was curious how most poeple belive these "illegal guns" get into the hands of criminals. Also, could someone post any studies on gun crime and whether the guns were legally owned. The poll is not meant to decide how they get them, just to gauge peoples opinion on how. Them maybe someone who might know some facts can post them to see how peoples opinions match up. It is also not meant to make gun owners or dealers look bad. We all know the vast majority are honorable and responsible people.

There is NO WAY I'd participate in a poll where one of the possible choices was "manufacturers who flood the market with cheap and illegal guns" on the list. That is just plain ignorant. All guns imported to or made in this country must have documentation and serial numbers stamped on them. IT'S the FREAKING law, and I don't know of any manufacturer who is willing to take the risk of breaking that law. That's for the "illegal" part.

On to the "cheap" part. It implies that those who live under less than happy financial conditions have no "right" to defend themselves. Not everyone can sit in a cushy job, earn a big paycheck, and buy nice expensive firearms. Perhaps we could have these folks just sharpen sticks? Yeah...cheap, easy, and highly effective self defense in a dangerous world.

As to dealers who sell on the side illegally, there is this agency that checks on them. If they do it, sooner or later, they ARE going to be caught, and the results are NOT going to be pleasant.

Could you at least THINK before you post...please?


<SHEESH>

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

There is NO WAY I'd participate in a poll where one of the possible choices was "manufacturers who flood the market with cheap and illegal guns" on the list. That is just plain ignorant. All guns imported to or made in this country must have documentation and serial numbers stamped on them. IT'S the FREAKING law, and I don't know of any manufacturer who is willing to take the risk of breaking that law. That's for the "illegal" part.

On to the "cheap" part. It implies that those who live under less than happy financial conditions have no "right" to defend themselves. Not everyone can sit in a cushy job, earn a big paycheck, and buy nice expensive firearms. Perhaps we could have these folks just sharpen sticks? Yeah...cheap, easy, and highly effective self defense in a dangerous world.


<SHEESH>

Geez...offended much? get a grip...participate or do not participate. It is up to you. The statement is very clear that these are just possibilities. I myself voted that theft s the main way. I just wanted to provide that option for people to see if anyone though that way. When you get offened at someone putting forth an "option" it makes you look a little close minded and unwilling to look beyond your own opinion. As for illegally made guns you might want to look back and check out some gun manufacturers that have been fined for producing guns with no serial numbers before 1993-94 when the new laws were passed. Also, back in the 70's foreign manufacturers flooded lots of little untraceable snubbies into America.

 

[dracphelan]

You left off the most common method, straw/private sales. Incase you don't know the difference:
Straw purchase - purchasing a firearm for someone who can not legally purchase a firearm
private sale - a private individual selling a firearm to another individual. Since the private individual can not run a background check, they do not always know if the other individual can legally own the firearm.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

You left off the most common method, straw/private sales. Incase you don't know the difference:
Straw purchase - purchasing a firearm for someone who can not legally purchase a firearm
private sale - a private individual selling a firearm to another individual. Since the private individual can not run a background check, they do not always know if the other individual can legally own the firearm.

Yeah, I wanted to add straw sales but cannot figure out how to alter the poll.

 

[Gatman]

Geez...offended much? get a grip...participate or do not participate. It is up to you. The statement is very clear that these are just possibilities. As for illegally made guns you might want to look back and check out some gun manufacturers that have been fined for producing guns with no serial numbers before 1993-94 when the new laws were passed. Also, back in the 70's foreign manufacturers flooded lots of little untraceable snubbies into America.

Got a source for this?

 

[allmons]

I do not care for your questions,

therefore I will not vote.

The wording and the questions sound staight out of Handgun Control's playbook.

You left out the most common way criminals get guns - they buy them.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Got a source for this?

Trying to remember the name of the gun...it was a small .22 revolver which sold for $11.70 in the 1970's. I believe it came from England but could be wrong. I remember it being part of my gun education class and then checking about it later on the net. It tended to explode as often as shoot. Anyone remember the name of it?

As for the fines...there are several listed in the forward to Bil Clinton's gun rights reform act in 1993. he also provided this information in document form to many press organizations.

 

[Third_Rail]

Where's the "stealing" answer?

The "straw purchases" one?


Yeah, rigged poll.

 

[depicts]

PlayboyPenguin

After being in these forums for a little over a week now, and asking over 200 questions and posts, today you ask something that makes me begin to wonder what your real motives are here.

I don't even like the questions you asked. They set us up to fail. I think criminals get guns through crime! Illegal possession, transfer, sales from one criminal to another.

Answering your questions implies that the manufacture, sale or use of firearms by law abiding citizens is responsible for crooks having guns.

The reasoning behind your question easily translates to "well if we didn't make them or sell them, criminals wouldn't have them".

That's bull. That's when you'd start seeing some illegal guns start flooding in from out of country from little gunshops all over the world. It would be as big a business as drug importation is now.

Beside the fact that you seem to dominate the discussion around here lately, you have just asked a most moronic question in the worst possible way for a true gun rights affecianado.

Maybe you should go back to your batman dolls and action figures, and leave the guns alone. I'm beginning to think that YOU are the kind of person I wouldn't want to have a gun, 10 year military veteran and all. I don't want to turn this into a personal attack, but you set off a little concern on my end today when I read your question. Sounds like the kind of question asked in the way a paid worker for handgun control might ask it.

You've posed some pretty interesting stuff here, but the sheer volume of your posts were beginning to turn me off. Now your search for insight has really done it for me.

 

[bogie]

Which part of Democratic Underground did you wander over here from?

None of the bleepin' above.

Criminals tend to steal guns, in many cases stealing safes, etc... Here in St. Louis, we've had 'em drive stolen trucks through walls to break into safe rooms, etc...

They'll also coerce family members, etc., into purchasing them for them. Which makes _them_ criminals.

Go back.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Where's the "stealing" answer?

The "straw purchases" one?


Yeah, rigged poll.

Stealing is on there. most thefts are from idividuals which is why we should keeps guns locked up when we are not home. I forgot staw purchases and have tried to add it but cannot figure out how. Anyone know how?

 

[sacp81170a]

IIRC a 1998 BJS study of federal prisoners who had firearms at the time of their apprehension showed that the majority of them (I want to say 90+%) got the firearm either from friends, family, or a black market dealer. A very small percentage (5% or so) obtained them legally, since they weren't convicted felons at the time the firearm was obtained. The smallest percentage were stolen guns. I fail to see how keeping firearms in a house in a gun case behind locked doors constitutes someone being a "careless gun owner" as you worded your question. The *criminal* is responsible for the burglary, not the victim. The wording of your questions reveals a bias against gun ownership, even if that's not your intent. I'll have to look up the study to confirm the figures, but knowing it's a BJS study should give you enough information to find it on your own.

 

[Third_Rail]

PlayboyPenguin, stealing is NOT on there. You have "careless gun owners, etc. etc."

Ever heard of a crook stealing a backloader, driving the damn thing through a wall of your house, and hauling your $1500 safe, along with your entire collection, away? How was that "carelessly" stored?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

IIRC a 1998 BJS study of federal prisoners who had firearms at the time of their apprehension showed that the majority of them (I want to say 90+%) got the firearm either from friends, family, or a black market dealer. A very small percentage (5% or so) obtained them legally, since they weren't convicted felons at the time the firearm was obtained. The smallest percentage were stolen guns. I fail to see how being in a house in a gun case behind locked doors constitutes constitutes someone being a "careless gun owner" as you worded your question. The *criminal* is responsible for the burglary, not the victim. The wording of your questions reveals a bias against gun ownership, even if that's not your intent. I'll have to look up the study to confirm the figures, but knowing it's a BJS study should give you enough information to find it on your own.

I think it is careless to leave guns where theives can get to them...would you want to walk in on a burglar and get shot with your own weapon....emarassing if not dealy. maybe I am trying to get into the gun safe business...or maybe some people are trying to find a reason to be offended. I just asked a question because my own opinion on gun ownership has changed over the years and one of the things I have always wrestled with is "how are these bad guys getting these guns?" It has taken me years to decide for myself that no matter what you do some people will kill other people. Maybe if people who owned weapons were required to own a gunsafe alot of guns would be out of ciminal's hand..then again maybe not. i am willing to explore all options and hear all opinions and not shout down someone who states something i did not think of or do not agree with.

 

[bogie]

Criminals are the reason why I have my bolt cutters and cutting wheel _inside_ my safe. Yeah, they take up room. But why leave stuff sitting out to help 'em get in.

Now go tell your anti friends about the buncha bubbas you trolled on the internet.

 

[Telperion]

The answers

Bureau of Justice Statistics Firearm Use by Offenders

Purchased from a retail store, 8.3 percent.
Purchased at a pawnshop, 3.8 percent.
Purchased at a flea market, 1.0 percent.
Purchased in a gun show, 0.7 percent.
Obtained from friends or family, 39.6 percent.
Got on the street/illegal source, 39.2 percent.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Bureau of Justice Statistics Firearm Use by Offenders

Purchased from a retail store, 8.3 percent.
Purchased at a pawnshop, 3.8 percent.
Purchased at a flea market, 1.0 percent.
Purchased in a gun show, 0.7 percent.
Obtained from friends or family, 39.6 percent.
Got on the street/illegal source, 39.2 percent.

Those numbers would seem to take the wind out of the sails of alot of people that thought gun shows were so bad (seemed like it was on the news alot not too ong ago)...I must admit I thought alot more came from gunshows than this indicates. I might have to look some things up and change my opinion a little.

 

[sacp81170a]

one of the things I have always wrestled with is "how are these bad guys getting these guns?"

Gee, and I thought you really wanted to know. Look it up on the BJS website. They asked actual bad guys who had actual guns.

i am willing to explore all options and hear all opinions and not shout down someone who states something i did not think of or do not agree with.

If the stats don't fit with your assumptions, then modify your assumptions, don't accuse me of trying to shout you down. The survey is not my opinion, it's a collection of facts. My opinion of the wording of your questions is hardly trying to shout you down either. Have I struck a nerve, eh?

Actual source:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

Edited to add: Thanks, Telperion, you got to it before I did, so I didn't have to type in the stats. My original post was off by a few percentage points, but that's because I haven't looked at those statistics for a couple of years. The only problem I see with the numbers is that the 39.2% street/illegal source isn't broken down into black market vs. stolen guns. Even giving half of that number to stolen guns, 19.6%, means that 80% or more of guns used in crimes were *not* stolen but obtained legally or from friends, family, or other criminals.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Gee, and I thought you really wanted to know. Look it up on the BJS website. They asked actual bad guys who had actual guns.



If the stats don't fit with your assumptions, then modify your assumptions, don't accuse me of trying to shout you down. The survey is not my opinion, it's a collection of facts. My opinion of the wording of your questions is hardly trying to shout you down either. Have I struck a nerve, eh?

Gee, why not read my post right abve the one you made.

 

[sacp81170a]

Gee, why not read my post right abve the one you made.

I was on the BJS website looking for those statistics and didn't see your post. It was a timing thing.

I might have to look some things up and change my opinion a little.

I salute your attitude in making that statement. This is a good place to learn.

 

[Hemicuda]

bad choices for answers, so no vote given...

 

[Meplat]

Geez...offended much? get a grip...participate or do not participate.

So kind of you to offer me the choice. As to grips, have plenty thank you. Have grips for revolvers, semi-autos...and one you seem to be lacking...reality.

It is up to you. The statement is very clear that these are just possibilities.

Then I guess it's also "possible" that they pulled them out of their butts or had them shipped from the moon.

I myself voted that theft s the main way. I just wanted to provide that option for people to see if anyone though that way. When you get offened at someone putting forth an "option" it makes you look a little close minded and unwilling to look beyond your own opinion.

Sorry. I've seen too many of your posts thus far to not begin to think you are trolling.

As for illegally made guns you might want to look back and check out some gun manufacturers that have been fined for producing guns with no serial numbers before 1993-94 when the new laws were passed. Also, back in the 70's foreign manufacturers flooded lots of little untraceable snubbies into America.

Err...the GCA of 1968 was when the laws requiring serial numbers were passed. Were you asleep from '68 to '93-'94?

As to the "untraceable snubbies", got anything other than what might have been pulled out of certain nether regions as cites when talking about established manufacturers?

C'mon, admit it. You're really Michael Moore incognito, aren't you?

 

[Meplat]

After being in these forums for a little over a week now, and asking over 200 questions and posts, today you ask something that makes me begin to wonder what your real motives are here.

This is FAR from the first post I have seen by this individual that leads me to believe that he is trolling. Way too many "have you stopped beating your wife" questions.

Beside the fact that you seem to dominate the discussion around here lately, you have just asked a most moronic question in the worst possible way for a true gun rights affecianado.

When I pointed that out to him, the response I got was "get a grip".

Maybe you should go back to your batman dolls and action figures, and leave the guns alone. I'm beginning to think that YOU are the kind of person I wouldn't want to have a gun, 10 year military veteran and all. I don't want to turn this into a personal attack, but you set off a little concern on my end today when I read your question. Sounds like the kind of question asked in the way a paid worker for handgun control might ask it.

+100

You've posed some pretty interesting stuff here, but the sheer volume of your posts were beginning to turn me off. Now your search for insight has really done it for me.

I honestly haven't been tracking his posts, just seen what I have "run across". About the only thing I've seen that was interesting was one he did on hidden safes. I can't comment negatively on the volume of his posts, as he and I have both posted roughly the same amount. I do tend to get "involved" in whatever I do. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, just a personality trait. Since I am physically unable to get out to the range anymore and shoot as much as I'd like, or hunt as much as I'd like, I like discussing issues near and dear to me. So I won't fault him for this.

Edited after a fact check:

Holy Moley! I stand corrected. Seems I've averaged 11 posts per day to PBP's 30 post per day average.