How do you feel the majority of criminals obtains firearms?

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People know right from wrong. Tough and mandatory sentences combined with real tough (hard physical work for food and lodging) conditions for inmates (forget re-training) will reduce crime rates. Mandatory death penalty for capital offenses, including major drug dealers, would stop it. But most folks are not directly affected so they do not push their elected officials, who ignore their supporters anyway, unless they are rich and can get them re-elected. What, me worry?.....the new motto of the unaffected.
 
The same way they obtain drugs and from the same sellers. Guns are a common "currency" in the drug trade.
 
HerrWolfe said:
People know right from wrong. Tough and mandatory sentences combined with real tough (hard physical work for food and lodging) conditions for inmates (forget re-training) will reduce crime rates. Mandatory death penalty for capital offenses, including major drug dealers, would stop it. But most folks are not directly affected so they do not push their elected officials, who ignore their supporters anyway, unless they are rich and can get them re-elected. What, me worry?.....the new motto of the unaffected.
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Bingo!!!
 
I think we can all agree that the biggest problem is criminals with guns using them for "evil" deeds thus giving all guns a bad rep in the mind of the average joe. So unless the pro-firearm community can come up with some good viable stategies to try and keep guns out of the hands of criminals we will never be able to win this war on firearm ownership.
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:rolleyes: Actually, it's usually MONEY that criminals really want, so if we could just get people to keep better care of their money and posessions, or implement some reasonable "wealth control", we could stop criminals at the source.:rolleyes:

Perhaps we should blame rape victims for not wearing burkas.
 
A big gun owner locally had a bunch of his guns stolen a few years back. Many of them never recovered including a nice heavy bbl .308. People who steal guns probably right out sell them 25% of the time at the most. I would say most of it is trade for drugs, etc.

Honest owner buys gun, stolen by thug, traded for drugs, traded for more drugs by one druggie, until it gets to a druggie/gang banger who eventually robs or hurts someone to get more money for more drugs. Automatic execution for druggies and gang bangers would help a lot. Oh really, you were caught with crack? Death penalty. What's that, you shot a 16 year old kid for wearing a different color shirt than you? Death penalty.

Instead of weeding out the scum of this country, we try to disarm the honest gun owners of America. Good plan. Sorry, I know I'm beating a dead horse, but its just how I feel.
 
It especially looks bad when we say "oh well, what are you gonna do".
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So your point is that gun owners don't care whether criminals commit crimes? For many, that's WHY we own a means to effectively protect ourselves.

Do a quick Google search on NRA Project Exile. You will see the good, bad and ugly about the largest gun-owners organization actually stepping up in response to the worthless Brady Bill to actually DO something about violent criminals who try to buy and use firearms, rather than just punish law abiding gun owners.

Of course, I keep wondering why known violent criminals are out walking around. $10 worth of rope can be re-used.
 
Mandatory death penalty for capital offenses, including major drug dealers, would stop it.
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I sincerely doubt that. Drug trafficking is so profitable that there'll always be someone to take the risks. Many rapes and murders are committed by individuals that are sociopathic or unstable. Not the types to think "well, if I do this, and get caught, they'll execute me" before acting. Violent crime is often irrational. Using logic to combat it can be a tenuous proposal.

Moreover, I fail to see how it's our responsibilty to deal with illegal gun trafficking. The government has a huge federal agency, paid for by OUR TAX DOLLARS, dedicated to just that purpose. Again, if you don't feel the ATF is doing an adequate job at this, write them a letter and tell them to spend less time bothering gun show vendors and more time trying to find freighters full of Chinese Kalashnikovs.

What you seem to be implying is that since we're "gun people", or however you want to phrase it, illegal gun trafficking is somehow "our" problem, and "we" need to find a solution for it. Do you also expect auto enthusiasts to tackle the serious car theft problem in this country? Do you expect pilots and aviation buffs to come up with a way to prevent another 9/11? Is it the responsibility of readers of Cat Fancy magazine to find a solution for animal cruelty?

Or, would it be fair to say that "we", as a society, have "law enforcement", paid for by our tax dollars, whose sole task it is to deal with these problems?

Anyway. Here's the real beef.

Everytime the government attempts to tackle gun crime, they invariably pass laws infringing on the rights of the citizenry. Laws that criminals, by the way, ignore.

Now, granted these measures don't work. But for the politicians, they can point to their passed laws and say, "See? SEE?? We're doing something. Even if it doesn't work, at least we're trying!"

Take the 1994 "Crime" Bill. That is the law that requires us to now go through a background check each time we buy a firearm. Compare firearms-related crime statistics with the passage of the bill, and you'll find...

...nothing. Not the slightest statistically significant difference. The implementation of the NICS system cost millions of dollars, and now, essentially, you have to check with the government and see if it's okay for you to buy a gun. (Can you imagine having to pass a background check before publishing a book?) And what did it accomplish? Nothing. Nothing good, nothing bad, nothing period. It's an irrelevancy as far as the black market is concerned.

So I put the question back to you. What exactly is it that YOU think we, the government, or whoever should do about this? What proposals do you have? Simply lamenting others' lack of concern for an issue while offering no solutions yourself is a little bit intellectually dishonest, after all.

Personally, you'll never convince me that there's some combination of laws that the government can pass to keep people from breaking those laws. The root causes of what you're concerned with are serious, complex social and societal issues, and no amount of legislature is going to fix that.

And that's the extent of the government's power. They can make things illegal, and they can punish people for breaking those laws. They can't pass a law that says "Drug dealing is no longer profitable", thinking that since it's no longer profitable, people won't do it anymore. Actually, I should watch what I type. I might be giving some congressman an idea...
 
The answer to the problem of criminals obtaining weapons is not one that will be solved by gun control legislation or gun control strategies. All that will do is constrain you and I-the law abiding. Instead, what is needed is criminal control legislation and criminal control strategies.

Encouraging the targets of their illegal depredations to fight back would be a fine place to start.

I guarantee you that folks who commit armed robberies with illegally acquired firearms will cease and desist once they're dead.

Same things for burglars, muggers, rapists, and yo-yo's committing assault. Penalizing the law abiding population for the crimes committed by the criminals has not worked. It will not work. Cull the criminals. Teach them an evolutionary message:"Gun crime is a sure way to the cemetery. But feel free, young man." Then offer a sizeable bounty for all perpertrators of armed robbery, assault, rape, burglary and other violent crimes who are killed in the act. Offer 1 percent of that for all those wounded in the crime.
 
Think about this...

Our government, in its endless wisdom, lumps all criminals together, as if all were sexual predators, or users of firearms in violent crimes. Makes sense to me! Sorta like saying all you dudes out there who served your country honorably in Vietnam were "babykillers", huh? The point is this: A man could be convicted of swiping $1,000 from his employer, and receives the same lifetime ban on using firarms as the jerk who kills a convenience store clerk in a $10 robbery. All a would-be burglar has to do is get a list of convicted felons who are now paroled and living the most fruitful lives they can, and he has a list of homes that he KNOWS will not be protected by a gun. Take guns away from those who use guns illegally? You bet! But from the rest of those who -- in the majority of cases -- will never commit another crime in their lives? Doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
ReadyontheRight said:
So your point is that gun owners don't care whether criminals commit crimes? For many, that's WHY we own a means to effectively protect ourselves.

Do a quick Google search on NRA Project Exile. You will see the good, bad and ugly about the largest gun-owners organization actually stepping up in response to the worthless Brady Bill to actually DO something about violent criminals who try to buy and use firearms, rather than just punish law abiding gun owners.

Of course, I keep wondering why known violent criminals are out walking around. $10 worth of rope can be re-used.
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Geez...if that is what you got from what I said it is one major case of selective reading and comprehension since it is exactley the opposite of what I said. I was making the point that we need to care because if we do not it can be used against us.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
One of Prof. James D. Wright's studies involved interviews of
1874 convicts in 18 prisons in ten states.
...
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OK, they are from UMass Amherst, so I'll jump in with another UMass story:

Back in the 70s, I was a second-shift operator at UMass-A and we hired a lot of work-study students to read in card decks and file printouts. One of these kids was a Republican Club member and looked as out-of-place as you can in the environment. White shirt, tie, slacks, and as nice a kid as the day is long.

So one evening he comes in to work and tells us FTEs that he finally finished his paper on guns. He'd written about how easy it was to GET a handgun and to prove it, had gone down I91 to Holyoke and purchased one hot from "some guy on a street corner". I especially remembered he told us the "guy" said that for another $50, "I can get you an Uzi." Day-yum.

For all I know, the kid was taking Rossi's course. Rossi was one of the "good" professors who actually taught courses.

P.
 
In my experiences as a prosecutor, I'd ay it depends on the criminal. If it is a criminal with a history, then you'll see street deals. Often, guns are currency, especially with the drug trade. A stolen gun isn't worth much monetarily (I had a case where a nice M-4gery was sold for $125, with a .25 Titan thrown in to sweeten the deal), but it will get you high or stoned. There are also (GASP) bad dealers and pawn brokers who will sell a gun, no questions asked, if the price is right. I have also seen a true, make Sarah brady cry, example of a garage dealer who would sell to anyone for the right price. He was even making his own short barrelled and ful auto weapons, which were very well done, if you don't mind a little JB Weld and ugly cosmetics.

Unfortunately, there are some crimes committed by people who have legitimately purchased firearms and then get stupid later.
 
I was making the point that we need to care because if we do not it can be used against us.
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So unless the pro-firearm community can come up with some good viable stategies to try and keep guns out of the hands of criminals we will never be able to win this war on firearm ownership. It especially looks bad when we say "oh well, what are you gonna do".
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I guess I take these statements to mean that you think gun owners should "do something" more to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. My NRA example is to point out that some gun owners have tried to do something about this. You can decide for yourself whether Project Exile is worthwhile, but it is certainly evidence of the gun community doing more than saying "oh well, what are you gonna do".

As I asked above ... what law would keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

The only possible way to keep guns from criminals is to eliminate guns. Without guns, criminals would then use knives, bats, sticks, fists and each other (gangs) to commit violent crime. Without guns, there is no way for an individual to stand up to a violent gang.

Guns in the hands of the law-abiding are by far the most effective means to level the playing field against violent criminals. All actions to "do something" about gun crimes end up disarming the law-abiding.

Personally, I couldn't care less who OWNS a firearm. It's just a tool.

I care when some idiot commits violence - with a firearm, automobile, bomb, chainsaw or rolling pin.
 
...I'm thinkin', Playboy Penguin, that some criminals get guns by kicking in the Secret Hidden Entrance to home-made Bat Closets full of guns, which the owner has posted descriptions and photos of on an Internet gun-forum. Just in case ya was wonderin'. Or they grapple his very own safe right out of his garage, and hack it open at their leisure.

But in actual fact, I do not care where or how bad guys get their guns. If they point them at me, they'll get to see my gun. And it will arrive with a deafening report and a bright flash, too. End of problem.

--H
 
Herself said:
...I'm thinkin', Playboy Penguin, that some criminals get guns by kicking in the Secret Hidden Entrance to home-made Bat Closets full of guns, which the owner has posted descriptions and photos of on an Internet gun-forum. Just in case ya was wonderin'. Or they grapple his very own safe right out of his garage, and hack it open at their leisure.

But in actual fact, I do not care where or how bad guys get their guns. If they point them at me, they'll get to see my gun. And it will arrive with a deafening report and a bright flash, too. End of problem.

--H
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My oh my, if they went to the trouble of finding where I live, breaking through a security rated garage door in a well populated area, then hitched up a wench to remove a 400lb safe that is lag bolted into 6" of concrete then they would probably just rob a gun store. But if they did go to this trouble noone would be able to accuse me of not making it as hard as possible to steal. As opposed to hanging them on the wall in my den, putting them in a drawer or something.:) but maybe i should just say "oh well, no matter what I do they are going to get them" and just start leaving them on my front lawn to save the criminals the effort and keep from having to replace my garage door.:rolleyes:
 
PlayboyPenguin said:
...then hitched up a wench to remove a 400lb safe that is lag bolted into 6" of concrete...
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I'm ignoring my own advice here but I cannot pass up the cheap laugh:
Us wenches is strong, PP, but we're not that strong.:rolleyes:

Oh, safe removal: truck, cable, yank: easy. Winch? Who needs a winch?

--H
 
Herself said:
I'm ignoring my own advice here but I cannot pass up the cheap laugh:
Us wenches is strong, PP, but we're not that strong.:rolleyes:

Oh, safe removal: truck, cable, yank: easy. Winch? Who needs a winch?

--H
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Hehe...I was picturing the same thing when I wrote it but was to lazy to look up if that was the proper spelling. That would be one burly girl. Once again i call for spellcheck on these boards!!:D And if it makes you feel any better. That cubby in my garage is around two different corners. They would not be able to pull it out directly from the street and there are embedded steel polls that block driving access near it (like the one you can kind of see to the right in the pic). Have you ever watched a video where the perps try to drag off an ATM? Even with a straight away to pull from they seldom succede. Anything can be done...if they had a tank they could just roll into any gun store in town and take what they wanted. Doesn't mean it will be likely or easy.:)
 
Third_Rail said:
EDIT: I think PlayboyPenguin is a troll, based on the recent questions and the 29.82 posts/day average.
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I think you nailed it. Certain anti-gun forces in WA are trying to close the "gun show loophole" with HB2861 and SB 5343. Sounds like PP might be looking for ammo for the hearings on the bill. Remember, anything you say in these forums is public, the liberals can and will take whatever you say out of context, supply their own "statistics" to your words and use them against you.
 
nwgunslinger said:
I think you nailed it. Certain anti-gun forces in WA are trying to close the "gun show loophole" with HB2861 and SB 5343. Sounds like PP might be looking for ammo for the hearings on the bill. Remember, anything you say in these forums is public, the liberals can and will take whatever you say out of context, supply their own "statistics" to your words and use them against you.
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Enough with the troll remarks. It is obvious I am not a troll if you actually read my posts in other threads before passing judgement. Not every one is going to agree with you...get used to it. There are people on here I like and some I do not like. Some of the people I do not get along with I still respect (such as herself). But I do not accuse people of false opinions or being plants for the far right because I disagree with them. People who do that are not worth listening to in my opinion.:)
 
I'm not too crazy about the wording of the question.

How I "feel" about the issue is irrelevant. In order to give a meaningful opinion on the subject, what I know about the issue is far more important.

I can "feel" that most criminals get their guns from those dreaded "unlicensed dealers", but my feelings don't necessarily make it so. I have to look up statistics from a verifiable and reputable source, and when I do so, I can know that most criminals get their guns through (surprise!) criminal activity such as stealing them from their legal owners, and that the percentage of legally acquired guns involved in crimes is in the single-digit percentage rate.
 
Congratulations Mr Playboy

you have just recieved the IGNORE LIST award <SMOOCHES> may your days be rewarded with future nominations
 
I believe the source is Under The Gun, Aldine, 1981....

Well, no, I believe the source is Under The Gun, Aldine, 1983,
James D. Wright, Peter Rossi, and Kathleen Daly ("et alia").
I found my set of proofs for Chapter One Weapons, Crime and Violence
in America: an Overview of Themes and Findings dated 01/05/1983 07:34.

The original DoJ study was published 1981--the book was
typeset in 1982 and published in 1983. Duh my memory.
Wright was selected to do the original study starting in 1977 by the
Carter administration in part because of his article "Demographics of
Gun Control" The Nation, November 1975.

When Wright questioned whether the benefits of gun control were
outweighed by the costs, his liberal credentials were questioned.
 
And while digging through the archives

Archives? (Ok a tattered manila envelope with forty years of carbon copies,
first draft notes and clippings) I found a one paragraph summary of a
Los Angeles County study from the sixties: of 39 guns recovered from
homicide 3 (three) had been legally purchased at retail. Others were
stolen private sales, etc. That was before the 68 Gun Control Act
back when gun sales were uncontrolled. Outlaws were getting guns
outside the legal system then as they do now. Such info is what
PlayboyPenguin deserves and not an ignore list.
 
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