Cross-draw? Sure, why not.

[SkyGuy]

Most novice gunslingers believe that strong side carry is the only way to go, hardly considering cross-draw.
Why? Because some 'expert' told them that cross-draw is too slow, that it sweeps the target and is more prone to a miss.
Whereas eu-ed/strong side/duty carry is faster and draws 'into' the target and more prone to a hit.

That may be true. But, remember, a quick draw toward the target is no guarantee of a com hit or even a meaningful hit or even a hit.
It's just fast......and only marginally accurate past spittin' distance. Try it.

Cross-draw isn't for everyone and it's not about to replace strong side/duty carry, but consider this:

Most draw situations will 'never' require a sub one second fast draw. You know, the "quick-draw".

Quick-draw can be fun, competitive and a great game to master, but it has little to do with a strong side, concealed carry scenario.
In the real world, by the time one clears their garmints for the draw, the quick-draw is nullified. It's simply past tense.

I carry cross-draw most of the time and for several logical reasons:

1. Cross-draw is very concealable. No bulge in the handgun area. It hugs tight to the body.

2. Comfort. Best carry for 8-12 hr. comfort. No banging gun on walls, chairs, door jambs, etc.

3. Fast draw from (dive for cover) kneeling, prone and supine positions.

4. It's a very quick draw from auto and seated. Strong side carry buries the gun in the seat.

5. Excellent weapon retention from front or rear with strike opportunities in case of a scuffle.

6. Easy and discreet fast access from covert carry....e.g. Allows easy early draw. Newspaper, briefcase cover, etc.
Walk with your hand on your handgun. Doesn't telegraph draw.

7. Easier to draw in running/dynamic situations.

8. Excellent weak hand draw. Try 'that' with a strong side carry.

cross-draw

strike from weapon retention

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[Lupinus]

it is also more accesable strong side

you get into a scuffle you are gonna be hard pressed to draw your pistol and be able to get in a shot, with strong side such a thing is going to be much easier. Just my view.

 

[CSA 357]

i like it, wears good but i cant say about the out come in a gun fight, didnt buford pusser carry cross draw?*csa*

 

[Warren]

The problem for me is that I have a long torso AND short arms which means that I am out of proportion though I'm not quite as bad as a T-rex. This means I have a heck of a time making cross draw work for me. I have to slump my shoulders and pull my gut in just to get my hand on the grip.

Otherwise I'm right there with you Sky Guy.

 

[warmrain]

In fact in a recent read (Farnum) the cross-draw was described as faster than strong side hip. Downside was harder concealment with an open coat and an easier gun grab in some situations.

 

[SkyGuy]

Chuck Taylor says:
"if you spend a lot of time seated a crossdraw is definitely worth considering. It is just as quick as strong side carry, perhaps even a bit faster. Although for many years I carried my guns strong side with increasing frequency I find myself slipping on a crossdraw rig these days."

Gabe Suarez says:
"Appendix Draw, or Cross Draw are markedly faster than strong side hip or behind the back. The lines and amount of motion required to get the gun on target are dramatically less. Why these two modes of carry have been ignored by many is primarily due to artificial restrictions at competitions and competition-based shooting schools."
.

 

[warmrain]

What is appendix Draw?

 

[brownie0486]

I've carried cross draw, it's a very fast to presentation on threat. Practicing this draw and becoming proficient is no different than practicing other draws.

I usually carried crossdraw as a second gun doing protection work in sport jackets or suit coats due to moving in and out of vehicles often. As other have mentioned, quite a bit easier to draw from seated, while moving in and out of vehicles, and with the proper cover garment conceals well.

The correct holster position and holster itself are mandatory, not all holsters are created equal. Some are slower than other methods of carry and some are faster, it's situationally dependant on many factors, not just the method of carry as some might think.

Crossdraw rigs without safety straps can also be problematic with retention in a struggle. The IWB strong side carry will usually secure the gun more than crossdraw holsters without the strap. It was always a concern when working with the two systems.

The IWB strongside would not be knocked out of the holster in a knock down drag out tussle, the crossdraw would be very suseptable to losing it on the streets without being secured by a safety strap, which may or may not make it slower that another carry method, depending again on the amount of time practicing the draws.

That may be true. But, remember, a quick draw toward the target is no guarantee of a com hit or even a meaningful hit or even a hit.
It's just fast......and only marginally accurate past spittin' distance. Try it.

Fast and accurate, the students get to see it, and duplicate it, well past spitting distances in every class. Those who believe it can't be both fast and accurate past spitting distances apparently haven't the skills others have after training in the methodologies of both. Practice in the skills and it's really quite simple.

I think Jordan, Bryce and Askins would certainly disagree here as well as to distances the skills can be utilized. Marginally faster is faster, no matter how you slice it, and has made the difference on the street in too many real battles to be dismissed so lightly.

1/4 or 1/2 seconds is a long time in a gun fight. 1/4 second faster means they other guy has two in him before he can fire his own weapon. If you can get two into someone before they can fire on you, you are well on your way to winning that battle. Those men who had the speed to do so, lived through a lot of gunfights, using their speed to stay above ground.

It may just be the ones who dismiss the good speeds of presentation don't have it through lack of practice and therefore can't use and rely on it, so it is summarily dismissed .

Brownie

 

[stiletto raggio]

My carry status is on a self-imposed temporary hold (don't want to test HR218 yet) but I am considering the carry of two smaller guns rather than my G23. Rather than a reload, I think carrying a back-up/alternate gun in crossdraw makes sense especially when you consider that being in your car is a particularly vulnerable time. Ask any cop who wears a pistol belt how quickly he can get to his weapon when seated in the car.

I have a Kar P( Covert that I use as my "light" carry gun, and I'm looking at a Smith and Wesson 638 (lightweight Bodyguard) as a crossdraw gun. That, and the 638 will also be for coat-pocket carry in the winter, when getting to a strongside weapon is also very difficult (heavy jacket).

Anyhow, I think the crossdraw is an excellent choice as a secondary, though my instinct standing up will always be to go to strongside. As a secondary, it will allow you to draw sitting and will balance out another gun easily.

Good post. Who is that scary older guy?

 

[MadMercS55]

Many times I'll carry a Sig P220 strong side with a P232 in a thumb-break crossdraw rig as backup. I found the smaller P232 hid very well even with a light cover garment. I've also carried a P228 crossdraw with a P226 strongside. The P228, at least to me, was pushing the size limit on ease of concealability, especially in warmer weather. I have a hard time finding a cross draw rig that fits me just right. For now I prefer the crossdraw rig to have a thumb-break or similar retention. I practice with it every time I hit the range and have become pretty good with it, using both right hand and left handed draws.

 

[LAK]

I think it has much merit and depends totally on the individual. I like it for some applications. Concealed carry and when carrying a handgun in addition to a long gun - it precludes having to constantly keep the buttstock away from the sidearm. And naturally for carrying a second handgun on a belt holster.

----------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[porterdog]

I like it; from a mechanical standpoint it makes good sense (and I find reaching behind for a grip slightly behind my hip to be ergonomically unsound- your arm and shoulder are in an awkward, vulnerable, and low powered position.) Trouble is, I can't seem to get the 'concealed' part right when carrying crossdraw- the grip angles out and is pretty obvious (SIG P228).

I'll stay with strongside for the time being.

 

[warmrain]

Oh, and I forget about hiking with a pack. A strong side carry doesn't work. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems cross-draw would be a better choice...?

 

[jem375]

I have been carrying crossdraw for years and for me it is the easiest and fastest way to carry. I have holsters made up for me with a 15 degree crossdraw cant and they work great.

 

[SkyGuy]

Trouble is, I can't seem to get the 'concealed' part right when carrying crossdraw- the grip angles out and is pretty obvious (SIG P228).

It's all in the holster and how you wear it.

Get the right holster that fits your body type...and you'll have a close fit, comfort and concealment.
.

 

[stiletto raggio]

To guys who do it or have tried it, how about some specific holsters? I know what I like for strong side, but I am totally new to crossdraw and would like some good places to start.

 

[brownie0486]

I've found two that I liked a lot over the last 20 odd years.

The Milt Sparks 55bn model [ which I carried as a second gun option mentioned preiviously here: http://www.miltsparks.com/55BN.htm , and

The Ted Blocker LFI rig here: http://www.tedblocker.com/LFIRIGA.html

With the blocker belt and holster you can set the angle of the crossdraw to suit your individual needs and place the holster anywhere on the waist at the same time. The Blocker LFI comes both with and without the strap I believe, mine has the strap.

I have both, for gov45's which I carried on the streets. You might find these to your liking. The 55bn is a very nice crossdraw holster of high quality and the one I worried about losing the gun in a scuffle mentioned preiviously.

Brownie

 

[psychophipps]

I must just have the wrong body type or something. I try to appendix or crossdraw holster my Ruger P97DC or Glock 17 and it sticks out like tits on a bull. Same with strong-side just behind the hip bone. In fact, the only carry that conceals (as in "*Poof!* No pistol here!") my pistols that I've found so far is basically a strong-side over my right butt-cheek belt slide or IWB rig.

Glad it works for you guys, though...
Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[brownie0486]

The only appendix carry gun that works fairly well for me is a 5 shot jframe Smith or similiar weapon. Anything with a longer barrel really digs into the front of the hip/groin area and is very unfortable.

The 17 and certainly the Ruger would not be used in crossdraw or appendix without serious cover garments to conceal same, no matter what holster you try to use.

The gov 45's were only worn crossdraw when a sport jacket or suit was the dress of the day. Even then, my hand usually had to keep the the cover garment over the weapon, which wasn't a bad thing either.

Advocating crossdraw's advantages is one thing, and finding something that works at concealing it well enough going about your business every day, day in and day out is quite another.

It's advantageous to have a gun in your hand at all times too, but you simply can't do that either, so the result is a compromise at best. Most will have to be concerned with concealing the gun from public view as the primary mission statement to begin with.

Sorta hard to explain to a responding officer who was dispatched by a concerned sitizen who "made" your piece that you read on a forum that it was faster to draw from and could be protected better from a gun grab. I don't think he'll give a hoot about what's been said on some internet forum about it's advantages when he's dealing with someone whose weapon was made by the public, thereby giving cause to potentially file charges of "inciting the public", or in the case of soem states, violating the "concealed" requirement of the license which let you carry it that way to begin with./

Brownie

 

[SkyGuy]

In fact, the only carry that conceals (as in "*Poof!* No pistol here!") my pistols that I've found so far is basically a strong-side over my right butt-cheek belt slide or IWB rig.

Don't go by me, but I use a right side draw Galco Yaqui slide holster. It holds my 1911 in place with two adjustable tension screws. It rides high and flat in front of the point of my hip. When seated the barrel doesn't poke my hip and the grip lays close. It's the best draw for me from seated, standing, walking, kneeling, running, etc. It remains very concealed and is comfortable.

I never liked the strong side carry because of all the problems of drawing from seated in a car, restaurant, theater, etc. Strong side draw gives off a helluva telegraph, whereas cross-draw lends itself well to the early, sneaky draw.
Cross-draw works for me because it's stealthy, very concealable and more conducive to real life encounters....at least in my experiences.

There's a cross-draw holster by DeSantis called the Sky Cop that is a forward cant, full holster and really good for a seated draw. I checked one out but it just leaned too far forward for me when standing. It probably works better for a more rotund guy. Body type 'is' a factor.
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[psychophipps]

Dumb question time...

What exactly is the "point" of the hip? I'm ass-u-me-ing that it's the bone you're refering to but I'm going to risk sounding like a complete tosser by asking to be sure. I see this descriptor all the time and just want to be sure I'm getting the correct mental picture.

Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )

 

[230RN]

I've been flamed for suggesting this on other sites, so why not here as well? In any kind of cooler weather I carry a GI 1911 crossdraw with no holster (so-called "Mexican Carry") under a light jacket or just a down vest.

Most of the pluses and minuses of cross draw have been covered above, but one advantage --I might have missed it in this thread --is that it's pretty easy to keep the jacket over the gun with one's weak side elbow as one does everyday things like paying for one's coffee, eating, unlocking your car door, etc. One thing I'd like to emphasize is that one is less vulnerable to a gun grab situation with the butt facing forward --a point noted above. It is easier to fend off a grab with one's off-side arm in a cross-draw carry. It's also easier to see a grab coming.


I usually carry an extra mag in the off-side pocket to keep wind from lifting the jacket or vest anyhow.

As far as not using a holster is concerned, I've been soundly criticized for this since, in the opinon of others, this is not a secure method of carry. I differ on that one. I don't see myself running down alleys and climbing fences to run a bad guy to earth. I'm an ordinary civilian, not a member of a posse. And it's always felt secure to me.

I've also found that it is easier to rack the slide with my off hand as I cross-draw --I don't carry with one in the pipe. And this is another thing I've been criticized for --not carrying cocked and locked. I've practiced the draw-and-rack indoors with my Airsoft Clone of the 1911 until it has become one smooooth motion, even with the stronger spring of the Airsoft.

Yeah, I know --"what if" your off hand is disabled? Well, I balance the extra safety of carrying with an empty chamber against the "what if."

I've gotten zinged from folks who think the arm ought to be carried cocked and locked supposedly because "that's the way the gun was designed to be carried," but I note that except under live-fire battle conditions, the US Army has always forbidden cocked and locked carry.

I'm an old time shooter and while I have no prejudice against the newer double-action-only autos, any small proficiency I have with defensive handguns has been gained with the old GI 1911, and I am loathe to upset the muscle memory gained over five decades of shooting.

Old dogs and new tricks and all that.

I get in a car with an automatic transmission and I still thump the floor with my left foot.

 

[SkyGuy]

Dumb question time...

What exactly is the "point" of the hip? I'm ass-u-me-ing that it's the bone you're refering to but I'm going to risk sounding like a complete tosser by asking to be sure. I see this descriptor all the time and just want to be sure I'm getting the correct mental picture.

Some people don't know what the 'point' of the hip is....and some people know, but just can't find the point of their hip. Flab abounds in America.

Anyway, here's a pic. The point is at the doc's right hand.

 

[SkyGuy]

In any kind of cooler weather I carry a GI 1911 crossdraw with no holster (so-called "Mexican Carry") under a light jacket or just a down vest.

Like you, I no longer have intentions of chasing somebody over walls or down an alley while my weapon is holstered. I prefer a minimalist style holster; a belt slide. But a really 'good fitting' cross-draw will work, too.

I figure the greatest possibility of an encounter will not require a 1/2 second quick draw......rather a suspicion of trouble leading to a stealthy draw, hand on weapon or a ready.
An ambush is unlikely if I'm paying attention.
.

 

[FrogClan]

Thanks for the topic, SkyGuy, and the good discussion.

I usually open carry, strong side, behind the point of the hip. When I carry concealed, I like the cross draw or appendix draw, IWB. Main reason is access to the gun while driving and wearing a seat belt. Also, with shirt tail out, I think concealment is better in front than behind my hip. (body type dependent, obviously). I'm still looking for a "good" holster for this arrangement.

What is appendix Draw?

If you are right-handed, a cross draw carry puts the gun between your navel and your left hip. If you "appendix carry," the gun is between your navel and your right hip (over your appendix). Lefties would reverse it.