Retention from the Cross Draw

[Tejicano Loco]

I have read over and over posts from a lot of people (mostly on other sites) how they believe cross draw carry is easier to disarm than strong side carry.

I believe this is 180 degrees out from the truth and that this idea comes from two very questionable assumptions.

Assumption 1 – That anybody who will try to disarm you will approach you from the front.
I cannot imagine how it could be easier to retain a pistol on your belt which is outside you field of view (strong side carry) than one which is almost in the center of your field of view (cross draw carry). If I were trying to disarm a carrier I would prefer that gun to be somewhere on the side or a bit behind that position. Much easier to approach from behind than to try to reach for a gun while right in the carrier’s face.

Assumption 2 – That a carrier will have to use his strong hand to retain his pistol.
If I were carrying in a cross draw holster and somebody did try to grab my pistol I would be trying to retain it with my left (weak) hand and use my right hand to attack the assailant. Strike him, draw a blade, put him in a wrist lock – as long as I have my left hand there to fight for retention I can do any number of things with the right.

Does this sound wrong to you? I would like to hear opinions about this. Particularly if there are holes in my thinking I would like to hear about them.

 

[Sam1911]

I think we touched on it a bit in this big cross-draw thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=702536

Definitely worth a read.

 

[Sam1911]

Here's another: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=666391

Might have to dig through to find the retention references exactly. Some good stuff on blocked or fouled draws though.

 

[CA Raider]

i spend a lot of time training on weapon disarms.

any time that your opponent is within arms length of your outstretched hand - you have a risk that he may try to take your weapon. keep in mind that he can step quickly towards you as well - one quick step. so be aware of that move.

his chances of getting your weapon are not good if you use your free hand to protect your face and chest, while you keep your gun close to your body (after you take it from your holster).

his chances are improved if he can distract you in any way, or get something into your face. therefore, protect your face and throat while you draw.

good luck, and I hope this does not happen to you.

BTW - if you want to get good training on weapons retention - you might pay attention to the US Marshalls Office.
Those guys take charge of dangerous prisoners for transport back to jails. I'd bet they've seen just about everything.
So if their folks ever offer a course ... definitely enroll.

CA R

 

[Tejicano Loco]

I have read through the threads linked above - thank you Sam1911 for the references. It was refreshing to see that people on this site seem much less dogmatic about "strong side carry" being the only way to go.

I think a major part of weapon retention is keeping in mind that YOU are the weapon and your pistol is just one of many tools. Retain but don't focus on the pistol while using other tools or methods to gain the advantage.

I was on the wrestling team in high school and have trained in Aikido and a few other martial arts in my early years. I have always found that my early training comes to the fore when it has been required. My methods - when it comes to this kind of fight - are as unorthodox as they are ugly and brutal. I will break things my opponent didn't even think would matter in ways he didn't expect.

 

[CA Raider]

that ought to do the trick

BTW - recommend you run the scenario in a lot of practice drills.
It makes a big difference.

CA R

 

[gamestalker]

I carry CD all the time and have been for a number of years, and have had such an encounter several years ago in a convenience store. It went down almost exactly as you described, some gang thug while facing me reached out and attempted to remove my firearm. I locked onto the weapon with my left and I came down hard with my right elbow on his wrist. It broke his hold instantly.

But this incident happened simply because I was not paying attention to my surroundings. He actually had hold of my weapon while it was in the holster for several seconds before I reacted, deer in the head lights thing. Fortunately, the thumb snap was difficult for him to figure out, or he may have won that one. But based on that incident I tend to agree with you on this one. There are also times when I carry strong side, but not very often and only when I know I'll be removing my weapon momentarily, as it's much more cumbersome when carrying CD.

GS

 

[lemaymiami]

Weapons retention training (serious formal training) should be something on every armed citizen's list.... On the police side of things - I had trainers on my team that could disarm any uniformed officer from the front, side, and rear... without any punches, kicks, or wrestling moves. In almost every case the weapons were in the latest security holsters and the officers were over confident of their ability to retain their weapons until we showed them otherwise... With training we were able to give our officers the skills needed to survive a weapons grab -but even that training won't protect you if you're not aware and quick to respond to situations where an opponent might succeed in removing your gun from its holster...

Here's a true life real encounter that almost cost an officer his life... The officer was very physically fit, very confident, and willing to get physical at a moment's notice if needed with any opponent. He'd often been commended for his street work and savvy (and would eventually go on to become a fine trainer....). One night he saw two young guys in front of a closed store just as an alarm was called in. Since he could see that there was no break and the two didn't appear to be a threat he stopped them without waiting for a backup... Over confident, he spoke to one at close range while the other one moved to his side... You guessed it, the one he wasn't looking at knocked him down with a single punch that he never saw. While he was down they removed his sidearm, then prepared to execute him. He was saved by an elderly couple walking their dog that came up on them as they were preparing to drop the hammer on him.... These fine young men fled with his gun and were never apprehended. After the fact we found the small break (a lower window panel where they'd just exited the store after cleaning out a jewellry counter inside) that just wasn't obvious unless you really looked closely....

Lesson number two in weapons retention is to keep away from anyone that might be preparing to physically assault you... since you can't protect that weapon if you're down and out...

 

[CA Raider]

thanks leymaymiami ... very good point.

CA R

 

[Airborneshodan]

I was an instructor for several years as a weapons retention / disarming instructor.

The most important rule in disarming is to keep yourself out of the line of fire. By cross drawing you are increasing the arc travelled before you are on target.

With your aikido skills you could easily apply them to a weapons grab from a crossdraw position, but imho, it would be much uglier than a decisive quick strong draw and/or strong side gun defense.

My recomendation would be that if you are in situations with a high risk of a gun grab, take a gun retention course. A good instuctor is also proficient in disarming should be able to demonstrate on a force on force basis to test out ur holster / technique.

You are way ahead of most, just by think thinking about gun retention issues!

 

[hso]

Practice with retention and draw has show over and over again that cross draw is one of the easiest carry approaches to foul. I've seen it and experienced it.

 

[CA Raider]

the cross draw is definitely vulnerable to "pinning". if your opponent pins your arm to your body (same arm that's drawing the gun) - you've got a real problem. I would agree that the move is more risky from that point of view. it's not too hard for skilled opponents, or lucky ones, to make this move. you can protect against it - a bit - by turning your body (hips and footwork) so you are not standing so squared-off against your opponent. but it is true that your arm sill crosses your body and there is an opening there for someone to stop you.

CA R

 

[jeepnik]

the cross draw is definitely vulnerable to "pinning". if your opponent pins your arm to your body (same arm that's drawing the gun) - you've got a real problem. I would agree that the move is more risky from that point of view. it's not too hard for skilled opponents, or lucky ones, to make this move. you can protect against it - a bit - by turning your body (hips and footwork) so you are not standing so squared-off against your opponent. but it is true that your arm sill crosses your body and there is an opening there for someone to stop you.

CA R

Pinning can render any sort of draw difficult to impossible. But, with one's arms pinned to the upper body, you still have the lower body to inflict damage on the assailant. And remember is your arms are pinned to your torso, both (unless he's one big fellow) of your assailants arms are employed as well. This of course makes it pretty near impossible for him to grab your firearm, unless he's from another planet and has three hands.

So, at the point of pinning, it doesn't become a situation of immediate danger to loosing one's firearm, but a good ole fashion down and dirty street fight. When that happens, whatever appendages you have free at the moment become your weapons of choice. And, it's pretty easy to become unpinned if one knows how. It's also very painful for the pinner.

 

[CA Raider]

the problem is timing. yes - you're right that it goes down to a fight - and really depends on who handles it better. it could go either way.

but one possible outcome is this.
imagine you do the cross draw.
he reaches with one hand and pins your elbow (drawing hand) to your body.
your immediate move is to take your remaining free hand and block his arm - the one pinnning your weapon. it's a natural thing to do - almost everyone will fight to try and regain control of their weapon.
now ... both of your hands are tied up for a second.
but he still has one hand free - therefore it's easy for him to throw a hook to your chin, or a cross. things start moving against you quickly after that.

it's all in the way the fight goes down. it could happen that you do handle it well, get your gun free, and shoot him.

the best thing is to draw while there's still enough space that he cannot close the gap on your body or arms.

cheers,
CA R

 

[jeepnik]

the problem is timing. yes - you're right that it goes down to a fight - and really depends on who handles it better. it could go either way.

but one possible outcome is this.
imagine you do the cross draw.
he reaches with one hand and pins your elbow (drawing hand) to your body.
your immediate move is to take your remaining free hand and block his arm - the one pinnning your weapon. it's a natural thing to do - almost everyone will fight to try and regain control of their weapon.
now ... both of your hands are tied up for a second.
but he still has one hand free - therefore it's easy for him to throw a hook to your chin, or a cross. things start moving against you quickly after that.

it's all in the way the fight goes down. it could happen that you do handle it well, get your gun free, and shoot him.

the best thing is to draw while there's still enough space that he cannot close the gap on your body or arms.

cheers,
CA R

Yep, it "could" go down that way. Or...? Even with both hands/arms temporarily employed, it's not time to stand around and wait for your assailant to do something, it's time to act. You've still got feet, knees, head and teeth to employ.

Oh, by the way, I once had a little trick demonstrated on me. If someone grabs for your gun, grab an ear and yank. I assure you they will let go, or loose an ear.

 

[Tejicano Loco]

he reaches with one hand and pins your elbow (drawing hand) to your body.

OK, let's play the "what if".

So we are assuming that I and the opponent are facing each other square within about a foot of each other.

Three things I do simutaneously are : stepping rearward with my right foot, turning my body 90 degrees from him, striking his jaw with an open left hand.

This both brings my opponent in line with my muzzle and either disorients him (if my left hand strike is successful) or keeps his right hand from reaching for my gun in requiring him to block my strike. It also makes it difficult for him to use his right hand to strike or grab at me as my movement would pull his left shoulder in my direction, leaving his right arm further away from me. Now, if he hasn't released my right elbow I have the muzzle close to or in contact with his torso and can shoot my way through him.

In reality so much about how one should respond depends on relative sizes, weights, apperant agility, his responses to my movements - just like any sparring match or tournament I've been in. You have to have some ability to read the dynamics of an encounter and respond with your best option rather than have a fixed response for every approach.