cryogenic barrel treatment? Anybody try it?
- Thread starter Tokugawa
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mrmeval
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A friend sent off his barreled action and had it done. It seems to have improved consistency between groups but did not make the groups smaller. His is a K-31.
Bad Flynch
Member
I spent the money on two barrels: one was simply cryo'ed and the other was double treated--cryo plus magnetic resonance relaxation. They were really good barrels to start with and one was even a special steel made so that it could benefit more from the treatements.
Did you ever hear the story of The Emporer's New Clothes?
Well, I'm sure that someone will notice the difference, but I did not.
Did you ever hear the story of The Emporer's New Clothes?
Well, I'm sure that someone will notice the difference, but I did not.
jpcampbell
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Tokugawa
I have the barrel blanks in the shop cryoed before contouring because they seem to machine better, I also cryo them after all machining is done.
I have never seen the group size change after cryoing but that's not why I do it. The cryo removes barrel stress, which means that the barrel has little or in most cases no movement during a fast and long shooting session like in a good PD hunt.
As the barrel heats up it relaxes and this can cause a stringing effect moving your point of impact, with cryoing the barrel is already stress relived so no movement.
I do think it gives longer barrel life but I base that on my own 17 Rem. which has 3520 round through it and still shoots 1/2 inch groups.
I also have all of my end mills treated and they do stay sharper longer.
The cryo treatment has to be done right with the temp dropped in stages and the soak time is also important, the heat tempering must also be done right at the end, a good cryo shop can even give you the hardness you want.
I recomend you do it.
I have the barrel blanks in the shop cryoed before contouring because they seem to machine better, I also cryo them after all machining is done.
I have never seen the group size change after cryoing but that's not why I do it. The cryo removes barrel stress, which means that the barrel has little or in most cases no movement during a fast and long shooting session like in a good PD hunt.
As the barrel heats up it relaxes and this can cause a stringing effect moving your point of impact, with cryoing the barrel is already stress relived so no movement.
I do think it gives longer barrel life but I base that on my own 17 Rem. which has 3520 round through it and still shoots 1/2 inch groups.
I also have all of my end mills treated and they do stay sharper longer.
The cryo treatment has to be done right with the temp dropped in stages and the soak time is also important, the heat tempering must also be done right at the end, a good cryo shop can even give you the hardness you want.
I recomend you do it.
Creeping Incrementalism
Member
Reading about this on the Perfect Union BBS, it seems that cryo treatment eliminates the vertical stringing that appears when the barrel gets hot. This is a problem with Mini-14s.
One thing I was wondering about cryo-treatment: the BATFE says a firearm owner can only ship interstate to FFLs. Are these cryo-treatment places that advertise doing it for guns FFLs, or am I missing something else here?
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8
One thing I was wondering about cryo-treatment: the BATFE says a firearm owner can only ship interstate to FFLs. Are these cryo-treatment places that advertise doing it for guns FFLs, or am I missing something else here?
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8
jpcampbell
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I deal with only the barrel which has no restrictions.
at www.thegunsmiths.com under information links lists cryo shops that specialize in firearms and have ffl's.
at www.thegunsmiths.com under information links lists cryo shops that specialize in firearms and have ffl's.
jpcampbell
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- Aug 24, 2006
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I can only speak for myself and what I have seen with it.
Its one of those things like Molly bullets some swear by them and some at them.
Its one of those things like Molly bullets some swear by them and some at them.
grumpydasmurf
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I know this thread is old. I was searching around gogole for info on cryo barrels and this thread popped up. My primary question was if the barrel as treated then some how altered, such as removal of some diamater or threading the mizzle tip, would this some how alter or damage the barrel.
The treatment facilities all seems to say the same, no it should not, but no suprise they recommend a second treatment anyways LOL.
I wanted to reply though specifically to the question about the BATF shipping information. You only need ship to a FFL when transfer of ownership is a concern. However you may send your firearm to any gunsmith for repair who may then send it back to you. This is my interpretation anyways and I may be off the batt.
here is what elese I have leared in my recent study. It seems if the barrel is cold hammer forged, the cryo treatment is often useless. While if the barrel is button or cut rifled, the barrel may see some gain. I also read abotu a NRA study which showed improvement in some barrels and decline in others. It seems to me the overall concensus in the shooting industry is if it aint broke don't fix it. In other words, shoot your barrel. If it shoots good, don't kick the sleeping dog, or don't send it to be cryoed. However if the barrel strings then give it a shot. After all the treatment is pretty affordable at most places and there are many shops doing it.
Personally I am thinking of buying a RRA cryoed stainless barrel for a 3gun build, but then removing some meat from the barrel to reduce weight. I haven't decided yet if it's better tog et a abrrel that is not cryoed, lathe it, then send it to get cryoed OR buy a cryoed barrel and lathe it. It'd be cheaper to buy the one already cryoed, but at the end of the day I am arguing with myself over $30. LOL, I'm nuts.
triggerman770
Member
ddd
As long as the gunsmith has an FFL.you can also send them to the manufacturer's and they can return them to you.
As long as the gunsmith has an FFL.you can also send them to the manufacturer's and they can return them to you.
Here is what Dan Lilja says about the process
http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#deepcryogenic
Q. What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels?
A. The cryogenic treating of barrels at a temperature of -300 degrees below zero has been a hot topic of discussion lately. Our short answer is that it will not harm your barrel but we are not completely convinced of all of the benefits claimed by some. The only benefits that we feel are likely to result from the treatment are possibly a longer barrel life and a slight increase in machinability.
Claims for increased accuracy through stress relief are not founded in our opinion. When barrels are button rifled no material is removed, it is just displaced. This causes stresses to be formed in the steel. If these stresses are not removed problems will result. These negative conditions include warping of the barrel during other machining operations, an increase in the bore diameter towards the muzzle end of the barrel during the contouring phase, and in the extreme, lengthwise splitting of the barrel. Also, if there are stresses remaining in the barrel they can be slowly released as a barrel warms up during firing. This causes the barrel to actually move during the course of shooting, causing inaccuracy.
In our testing we have found that the only effective means to completely remove the types of stresses introduced during rifling are with conventional heat treating using elevated temperatures. The -300 degree treatment alone will not remove these stresses. We have been told by a knowledgeable metallurgist that the deep cold treatment will, at best, remove up to 6% of the remaining stresses in the type of steel used for rifle barrels. The key words here are remaining stresses. In other words if the barrel was not stress relieved conventionally, then only 6% of the original stress will be removed. If the barrel has been treated conventionally with heat and then brought through the -300 degree cycle, up to 6% of any remaining stresses could be removed by the cold treatment. We do know through our testing that the cold treatment alone will not remove any significant amount of stress and that the problems outlined above concerning stress will remain in the barrel.
So, because of the very limited amount of stress that could be removed with the cold treatment (if the barrel has been properly stress relieved with heat as our barrels are) we do not believe that there can be much if any accuracy benefit to the -300 degree treatment of our barrels. It is for these reasons that we feel the cold process has very little potential for increasing the accuracy of our barrels. In our opinion, other than the removal of these stresses, there are no other mechanical factors involved that could benefit accuracy in a rifle barrel, resulting from a heat treating operation, either hot or cold.
For reasons not completely understood however there may be an increase in the wear resistance of the steel. This type of wear however does not contribute greatly to barrel erosion. We invite you to read our comments on this type of barrel wear in the question regarding the use of moly coated bullets.
Another possible side benefit to the freezing process is a slight increase in its machinability.
Post Script: Since I originally wrote this an excellent article by Kevin Thomas of Sierra Bullets was printed in the September, 1998 issue of Precision Shooting magazine. Mr. Thomas found, in a controlled test, that there was little benefit to deep freezing match grade barrels. He could see no difference in accuracy but probably a slight increase in useful life. I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to take a look at this article.
http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm#deepcryogenic
Q. What is your opinion of the deep cryogenic processing of barrels?
A. The cryogenic treating of barrels at a temperature of -300 degrees below zero has been a hot topic of discussion lately. Our short answer is that it will not harm your barrel but we are not completely convinced of all of the benefits claimed by some. The only benefits that we feel are likely to result from the treatment are possibly a longer barrel life and a slight increase in machinability.
Claims for increased accuracy through stress relief are not founded in our opinion. When barrels are button rifled no material is removed, it is just displaced. This causes stresses to be formed in the steel. If these stresses are not removed problems will result. These negative conditions include warping of the barrel during other machining operations, an increase in the bore diameter towards the muzzle end of the barrel during the contouring phase, and in the extreme, lengthwise splitting of the barrel. Also, if there are stresses remaining in the barrel they can be slowly released as a barrel warms up during firing. This causes the barrel to actually move during the course of shooting, causing inaccuracy.
In our testing we have found that the only effective means to completely remove the types of stresses introduced during rifling are with conventional heat treating using elevated temperatures. The -300 degree treatment alone will not remove these stresses. We have been told by a knowledgeable metallurgist that the deep cold treatment will, at best, remove up to 6% of the remaining stresses in the type of steel used for rifle barrels. The key words here are remaining stresses. In other words if the barrel was not stress relieved conventionally, then only 6% of the original stress will be removed. If the barrel has been treated conventionally with heat and then brought through the -300 degree cycle, up to 6% of any remaining stresses could be removed by the cold treatment. We do know through our testing that the cold treatment alone will not remove any significant amount of stress and that the problems outlined above concerning stress will remain in the barrel.
So, because of the very limited amount of stress that could be removed with the cold treatment (if the barrel has been properly stress relieved with heat as our barrels are) we do not believe that there can be much if any accuracy benefit to the -300 degree treatment of our barrels. It is for these reasons that we feel the cold process has very little potential for increasing the accuracy of our barrels. In our opinion, other than the removal of these stresses, there are no other mechanical factors involved that could benefit accuracy in a rifle barrel, resulting from a heat treating operation, either hot or cold.
For reasons not completely understood however there may be an increase in the wear resistance of the steel. This type of wear however does not contribute greatly to barrel erosion. We invite you to read our comments on this type of barrel wear in the question regarding the use of moly coated bullets.
Another possible side benefit to the freezing process is a slight increase in its machinability.
Post Script: Since I originally wrote this an excellent article by Kevin Thomas of Sierra Bullets was printed in the September, 1998 issue of Precision Shooting magazine. Mr. Thomas found, in a controlled test, that there was little benefit to deep freezing match grade barrels. He could see no difference in accuracy but probably a slight increase in useful life. I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to take a look at this article.
Krispy
Member
thanks for the post smokey....it was very informative.....6% may not
sound like a lot , but it may eliminate one of the variable's of
precision shooting...whether it is cost effective seems to be the
question..
sound like a lot , but it may eliminate one of the variable's of
precision shooting...whether it is cost effective seems to be the
question..
Absolutely, definitely, probably, possibly, perhaps, maybe, sort of, not at all. Seems to depend on whether the person asked is selling the process.
IMHO, another fad that will last a while or until replaced by the next fad.
Now, have I told you about the bear grease and bats' wings ointment I am selling, with a 100% guarantee? Just rub it on the barrel and I guarantee I will pocket your money.
Jim
IMHO, another fad that will last a while or until replaced by the next fad.
Now, have I told you about the bear grease and bats' wings ointment I am selling, with a 100% guarantee? Just rub it on the barrel and I guarantee I will pocket your money.
Jim
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