Curio Carry (Warning, large pics)

[RevolvingGarbage]

Do you ever carry a firearm for personal protection which others would or might consider to be obsolete or antiquated? What do you think are some of the limitations of carrying such firearms? What might be some advantages of doing so?

I have been doing some work on this H&R Young America in .32 S&W which I recently acquired to make it ready for use as a carry weapon. I replaced an iffy sear, and did a full takedown/clean/regrease, and am working on a replacement front sight blade.

To answer my own topic questions, I believe the main limitation of this tiny double action revolver is the slow speed to reload. It works just like the NAA mini's in that you remove the cylinder pin out the front of the gun, pop the cylinder out, and use the pin to poke the empties out before reloading the cylinder and popping it and the cylinder pin back into the frame. The fastest I can do this myself is between 20 and 30 seconds, which is not ideal. There are other factors that limit this handgun such as the generally anemic ammunition which generates roughly 630 fps with an 88gr bullet.

The advantages of such a gun are mostly limited to it being absolutely tiny and therefore very easy to carry in basically any clothing. It is essentially the size of the NAA mini revolvers, but with the advantage of (arguably) better caliber, and a double action mechanism.

 

[huntershooter]

I occasionally open carry one of these at the ranch, all in .45 Colt.
While they're not antiques, the design (single action revolver) would be considered by most to be "ineffective".
My ass they are.

 

[MikeJackmin]

I have an opinion that I can share, but I don't intend to offer any advice. Please take my comments in that light.

I have a number of weird old guns that I enjoy and that I have a strange affection for. I just like spending time with them. It's fun to drop the old Walther .32 in my pocket before going out on a walk, not because I really expect to shoot anything, but because I like to have it along. (I did zap a probably-rabid skunk once on a dog walk, so it's not any entirely crazy thing to do. Of course, that day I happened to be carrying a 9mm tokarev).

That said, I take carrying for defensive use as a serious thing, and I make my choices there without respect for sentimentality. My point is that I think it's important to distinguish the two types of gun-carrying, and not let the first blend into the second.

People often address unlikely risks half-way, on the assumption that, well, if it's an unlikely risk, then a half-hearted solution is OK. This is untrue. If it happens, it happens 100%, and you are either adequately prepared or not. You either accept the full burden of the unlikely risk, or accept the full burden of a sufficient response.

That said, an LCP/P3AT is, in every respect, a better choice than an antique .32. There may be other choices that you'd prefer even more.

This does not mean you can't carry your .32 when you want. You fixed it, and it's special to you. Just don't confuse it for a defensive gun, that's all.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Those H&R Young Americans are small tiny revolvers by today's standards. They are even smaller than J-Frames. With that said, the metal in those revolvers aren't as harden as today's metals. Also, many of those guns were made for blackpowder. If you are going to carry a .32S&W for SD, you need to make sure it can handle smokeless. Those things are also not drop safe, but I'm sure you already know that. Not a huge issue for something kept in a pocket holster.

BTW, the H&R Young American 32's were only chambered in 32S&W Short. The H&R American Double Actions were chambered in 32S&W Short and 32H&R/32M&H.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

I frequently carry my S&W Safety Hammerless in .38 S&W. A lot of people would laugh off the cartridge, but I very much doubt anyone would be laughing at it if they were shot with it.

People often address unlikely risks half-way, on the assumption that, well, if it's an unlikely risk, then a half-hearted solution is OK.

Let's be honest, any pistol is a half-hearted solution. If I knew I was going to have to defend myself with 100% certainty, I would be carrying a rifle, so any pistol is an expedient compromise. Some people would think my revolver is not suitable, but it has it's redeeming features. It's very small and easy to conceal, so I carry it more often (I won't bother with a lot of my other carry guns because they fail here....just too big) and while it's a fairly light round, the gun is extremely accurate and you can pull off very fast follow up shots due to the light recoil. If I ever needed to use it for defensive purposes, I would be confident doing so.

 

[Old Fuff]

I occasionally carry older (meaning smaller) guns, made between give-or-take 1910 to the early 1040’s. However I pick top-quality makes and models. For example, a Smith & Wesson .32 Safety hammerless revolver is approximately the same size as your H&R, but is a lot safer to carry, made of better materials, completely ambidextrous, and quicker to load or unload. It is also likely to be more accurate, and when you lower the caliber and power of the cartridge being carried bullet placement becomes much more important.

They do have they’re place, because unfortunately none of our current makers offer anything below the size of Smith & Wesson’s J-frame. However anyone who turns to anything smaller should also carefully consider the limitations they present as an effective self-defense weapon.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

By all means, a gun like that .32 is not what I consider a serious defensive handgun. Could I fight with it if it was all I had? Absolutely, within its limitations.

I carry a full size 1911 out and about, at work etc. Around the house, I like the .32 or my break top in .38 S&W in the pocket, with the 1911 close at hand.

Also, the Young America is indeed drop safe when carried properly, or in other words with the firing pin resting between case heads.

 

[35 Whelen]

Why yes I do. Just yesterday I had to run to town for some valve lapping compound for a barrel lapping project. When I arrived at O'Reilly's I hesitated then pulled the 4 3/4" Uberti .44 Special out of the holster and laid it in the seat of the pickup but left the cartridge laden belt and holster on. Did my business then pulled around back to dump some used oil. On the way I slid the pistol back into the holster and (attempted to)pulled my t-shirt over it. The employee and I chatted as I emptied the oil into their big container and as I turned to leave I looked down and noticed my shirt had ridden up over the handle and the pistol had been exposed the entire time I was disposing of my oil. The employee never even mentioned it.
Ya gotta love small town Texas...

35W

 

[Tony_the_tiger]

Pepe's doesn't mess around.

 

[Kaeto]

When I'm in the mood to I carry a .455 Webley as a self defense gun.

 

[BSA1]

O.P.,

I own the same gun you do only mine has a front sight.

For grins and giggles I recently fired two rounds of Remington 32 Long from this gun into 2x4 lumber from 2 or 3' away. Both bullets completely penetrated the first 2x4 but only dented the board behind it. The bullets were loose and merely trapped between the boards. The tip of one bullet was slightly deformed and the others was undamaged. Both can be reloaded.

I will not use this gun for self defense for any reason. It is a range toy only. I would choose peppermace or a ASP over it.

 

[ZVP]

Wow this post looks weird!
I have a H&R 1906 that is a really dimunitive revolver! I only shoot CBCaps through it because even shorts expand enough in the cylinder that they are tough to eject. I doubt CBCaps qualify as defensive loads but are real fun to shoot!
BPDave

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

BSA1,

Do you often find yourself accosted by lumber?

Your test does a good job of illustrating that a slow lead .32 slug does not penetrate well in hard wood, but what you have to understand is that a person is not made of wood. That same bullet that gets stopped by a few 2x4's will poke 18" into calibrated ballistics gel. Yes, the bullet may deflect off a bone, but so will most pistol bullets if the angle is shallow.

As I said, part of carrying such gun is thoroughly understanding it's limitations.

 

[Jaymo]

I've been known to carry (of all things) a 5 shot revolver chambered for .44 special.
It's not even made of cheap plastic.
Talk about obsolete. No magnum chambering. No internal lock. No fiber optic sights. No Tupperware. No laser.
WAY obsolete.

 

[Old Fuff]

Gee...

Now I feel bad 'cuz I got one too. (Taurus model 445)...

 

[Stress_Test]

BSA1,

Do you often find yourself accosted by lumber (or ballistics gel)?

.... but what you have to understand is that a person is not made of wood (or ballistic gel). That same bullet that gets stopped by a few 2x4's will poke 18" into calibrated ballistics gel. ......

My text in red. You do see that you're making the same logical mistake that you're pointing out to him, don't you??

On topic, sometimes I carry a revolver (LCR), and many people consider ANY revolver obsolete, so that qualifies.

I carry it because it'll eat any ammo without having to worry about magazine function and feeding. It's sometimes a backup.

I would never, ever carry a gun such as in the OP, or a black powder cap and ball, etc, etc, unless it was the ONLY thing I had and I was too poor to buy anything else at the moment. The moment I acquired a more suitable carry gun, the relic would go back to being a relic. Can't understand why some people would deliberately handicap themselves. The guy trying to kill you won't be stopping to admire your neat old gun. Not trying to be harsh, just that I see this topic come up from time to time and it looks like a dangerous idea.

 

[Old Fuff]

I intend to go into the subject deeper when I get the time, but for now I'll point out that Smith & Wesson made their .32 Safety Hammerless until 1937, and the ,38 version until the factory retooled for World War Two in 1940 - 41.

Iver Johnson made a similar .32 top-break revolver, and the OSS (that preceeded the CIA) bought some during the war.

These late production revolvers were made for smokeless, not black powder, and the Iver Johnson featured music wire springs in place of flat ones. They made an ideal last-ditch hideout where nothing larger would do.

Today we have a void that needs to be filled between revolvers smaller then the S&W J-frame, and larger then NAA's little single-action/spur trigger .22's.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Stress Test,

You make a valid point that people are not made of ballistics gel just like they aren't made from wood.

Ballistic gelatin is however used because it is essentially analogous to human tissue, where something like lumber is quite obviously not.

My basic point was that the same bullet that won't make it through two 2x4's won't have nearly so much trouble with soft tissue. Things like buckshot and round balls also have trouble passing through even moderate cover, but will still cause devastating damage to soft tissue.

 

[Jaymo]

I would have no problem carrying a cap & ball BP revolver, provided I had vetted it and made damned sure it would reliably pop caps and ignite BP.
A 5.5" Remington 44 repro with the chambers full of 3f BP and a round ball is not to be taken lightly.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Here's my tertiary carry piece, my Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless (Old Model).

It stays in my jean pocket at home, or rides in a leather IWB for short walks or visiting (anti-gun) relatives. The leather rig shown in the second pic came from the used bin at the LGS. No idea what it was made for, but it fits the old breaktop well.

The ammo shown is FN stamped .380 Mk.II Z 178gr FMJ. Its a smokeless load designed by the Brits for their Enfield and Webley revolvers as a Hague Convention-legal alternative to their lead .38/200 load. I carry the gun with this load, and have fired a hand full of them to assure myself that the gun can handle them (in very limited amounts) and that they hit to POA. I was pleasantly surprised when they printed right on top of the gold bead at 10 yards. For regular practice, I load my own pyrodex/LRN ammo.

I do NOT recommend that anyone regularly fire the old blackpowder frame guns with smokeless ammo as doing so will slowly beat the gun to death, even if its not going to turn it into a handgrenade.

 

[BSA1]

Do you often find yourself accosted by lumber?

Well have you ever have of being a chip off the old block?

One clear conclusion from my grins and giggles test if the bullets didn’t expand shooting into hard 2x4’s they such as heck aren’t going to in the human body.

Another clear conclusion is after hitting a major bone the bullet won’t have enough energy to penetrate much further.

Humm... no energy transfer, bullet expansion and penetration.

Having worked the streets and several years in a major metro medical trauma center I have seen the results of many shootings. I have seen bullets easy deflected by the human skull and even ribs with the victim walking out the E.R. with nothing more than a few stitches and couple of bandaids. For me personally shooting another human being is a desperate, last resort and if forced to one I want to be over as quickly and decisively as possible.

Shooting someone with your little popgun may indeed kill your attacker but what comfort is it going to be to your family at your funeral that your attacker died later after taking your little popgun away from you and beating you to death with it?

I apologize for bringing real life into your discussion. Do carry on the making your mud pie

 

[BSA1]

While they're not antiques, the design (single action revolver) would be considered by most to be "ineffective".

huntershooter,

There are thousands of Cowboy Action Shooters that have proven the reliability and effectiveness of the Colt SAA.

I wholeheartedly concur with packing the SAA. It also hides well for concealed carry.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Do you often find yourself accosted by lumber?

Well have you ever have of being a chip off the old block?

One clear conclusion from my grins and giggles test if the bullets didn’t expand shooting into hard 2x4’s they such as heck aren’t going to in the human body.

Another clear conclusion is after hitting a major bone the bullet won’t have enough energy to penetrate much further.

Humm... no energy transfer, bullet expansion and penetration.

Having worked the streets and several years in a major metro medical trauma center I have seen the results of many shootings. I have seen bullets easy deflected by the human skull and even ribs with the victim walking out the E.R. with nothing more than a few stitches and couple of bandaids. For me personally shooting another human being is a desperate, last resort and if forced to one I want to be over as quickly and decisively as possible.

Shooting someone with your little popgun may indeed kill your attacker but what comfort is it going to be to your family at your funeral that your attacker died later after taking your little popgun away from you and beating you to death with it?

I apologize for bringing real life into your discussion. Do carry on the making your mud pie

BSA1,

"Well have you ever have of being a chip off the old block?"

Huh?

Anyway, I really think you are underestimating even the lowly .32 S&W when you call it a pop gun. I also think you don't have a good grasp of how bullets work if you expected a subsonic LRN from a pistol to do any "expanding" in any medium, much less a hard wood. LRN bullets poke holes, and tumble if you are lucky.

Also, I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want to hear contrary opinions, but this:

"...what comfort is it going to be to your family at your funeral that your attacker died later after taking your little popgun away from you and beating you to death with it?."

First of all, that's not much better than pure denigration on your part. Do not pretend to know what I am, and am not capable of.

For the record though, its going to take one helluva gorrila to beat all 6' 240 lbs of me to death with a 20 oz handgun. I'm not strapping this thing on and calling out MS.13 in the streets man, its a pocket piece for packing around the house.

 

[Stress_Test]

Dang dude, if you're that big you can hide a bigger gun on your frame than that I think!

BTW, regarding expansion, I've heard that water is the medium most likely to cause expansion, so if the bullet doesn't expand when fired into water, that's bad. I don't think any hollow point would expand when fired into/through something hard.

But I'm just some guy who reads stuff on the internet so it'd probably be good to try it out for yourself.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Dang dude, if you're that big you can hide a bigger gun on your frame than that I think!

Behold, the tremendous power of one apostrophe...