Current military marksmanship training?

[jnyork]

On another board, some mention was made of the current state of affairs regarding the marksmanship training our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines now receive in Basic Training and advanced training . Would be neat if some active duty members could chime in here, some from each branch, and give us a detailed report, should be very interesting. Thanks.

 

[Sato Ord]

Okay, I've been out for a while, but my friend the Colonel shoots 1800 or more rounds a month.

He, and his team, have to be able, starting at fifty yards, to advance on the target and keep all of the rounds out of their pistols (fourteen in the mag) in a two inch group. That's just pistols.

Of course these guys can drop a round out of a 203 into a 3lb size coffee can from over a hundred yards while moving also.

Okay, done with demi-gods and heroes, now we can move on to the regular mortals.

 

[Floppy_D]

In Navy basic (Jan 02) we never fired a single live round. We used pneumatic simulators with laser pointers. I never actually fired a round until we did a gun shoot underway on the ship, and I got basic rifle and pistol qualled. I want to say less than 50 rounds for each, for the qual. People who shot holes in the deck still got quallfied.
A couple years ago I got some schools at Northeastern that were more intensive, and included OC and baton training.

I'd estimate the number of people onboard that gave a rip about their accuracy at 10%. For most people, shooting was a chore. Those of us that worked in and around the armory typically took a little pride in what we did, and made it a point to practice. A couple of us were all out range-rats who would stick around until every last round was fired.

 

[jlday70]

I don't know about now but when I was in the Artillery I was qualified on the M16, pistol(both 1911, and m9), M2 .50cal, M60, and the Mark 19 grenade launcher. That was in peace time so I can imagine that today's soldiers are pretty well trained.

 

[Sharpshooter223]

I was a cavalry scout in the Army in a recon battallion. It's one of the new RSTA battallions all of the brigades are going to now which makes them smaller and better organized for modern warfare. We had some weapons training in basic... not much though because that's what it is, basic.

When we got to our unit then there was extensive training so we all became very proficient with all of the weapons we had. 50 cal, mk19, m9, m4, m14, 240b, 249saw, m203. It wasn't so much as see how well we group at long ranges, it was mainly being fast at room clearing and being able to react to, and eliminate a target quickly and with precision. But yea we had a LOT of training before we deployed to Iraq.

I mention the RSTA battallions because they are unique. When we did a big training exercise the cooks, fuelers, truck drivers, ect (non combatants) were always out there and would go through a similar training as us and the infantry. Of course their NCO's usually can't offer much knowledge to them so they don't do too great but they do get a lot more training than the norm. All in all, the army has pretty good things going with their training.

 

[Treo]

QUOTE : "He, and his team, have to be able, starting at fifty yards, to advance on the target and keep all of the rounds out of their pistols (fourteen in the mag) in a two inch group. That's just pistols.

Of course these guys can drop a round out of a 203 into a 3lb size coffee can from over a hundred yards while moving also."

Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay like to see that. Also like to see a field grade officer leading a fire team, his name wouldn't be Col. Mike Kirby would it?

When I was in it was more about hitting the target (anywhere) than shot placement.

I was always taught "If you kill a guy that's one guy off the battlefield but if you wound a guy that's THREE guys off the field" The three being the guy you shot & his two buddies that have to take care of him

 

[chris in va]

A while back, but in 1992 the Air Force simply had us fire a M-16 on semi at a target, 43 shots IIRC. No full auto, no handguns. Heck, most of us had never fired a gun before.

We all wanted badly to flick the happy switch, but we'd be washed back to a different 'flight'.

 

[erictank]

On another board, some mention was made of the current state of affairs regarding the marksmanship training our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines now receive in Basic Training and advanced training . Would be neat if some active duty members could chime in here, some from each branch, and give us a detailed report, should be very interesting. Thanks.

Another former servicemember here (Navy), boot camp was back in '91, but here's what we did then. Range day was scheduled late in the boot camp cycle, week 6 of 8 IIRC, and was to consist of basic firearms-safety classroom training (a half-day?) and a whopping 50 rounds through a 1911 fitted with a .22LR conversion kit.

Of course, when I went through, at NTC Orlando, the range ventilation system had been broken for 2 months, and was not scheduled to be fixed until that fall. So, we got NO training at all, not even the classroom stuff, let alone any live-fire.

There were 2 opportunities which came up for official pistol and rifle ribbon quals during my time on the TR (CVN-71), as I recall - both of which I was on duty for and was unable to get off the ship.

 

[UnknownSailor]

In the Navy, the amount and type of small arms training you receive vary greatly, from little to none in some rates, to lots for others.
I, being a supply puke, will get the bare minimum required to stand armed sentry duty, but only while aboard ship. For those in Security, they get roughly the equivalent of what civilian police get. Visit and boarding teams on cruisers and destroyers will get quite a bit, too.
We in the Navy don't kick doors down and clear interior rooms, as a general rule, so our small arms training is a bit lacking, IMO.
Our basic pistol qual is static lane shooting using an M9 at a B-21X silhouette placed 25' distant. 6 mags of 5 rounds each.
When I shot this course, I got mad at myself if I didn't get a 4" group with a 30x "score."

 

[Starship1st]

Pryer to 911 the Air National Guard used the simulator for M16 rifle and M9 pistol. This was due to the cost of ammo. Since then, the instructors told me that they have plenty of ammo and everyone will live fire. Even Chaplain Assistance qualifies on the rifle.

 

[psyopspec]

This comes from a conversation I had with an Army BCT 1SG at Fort Benning in February. He was in my shooting squad during an Excellence in Competition pistol match we shot on post.

Infantry basic trainees are now issued an M-16 with a CCO (red dot scope) and two magazines of blank firing ammunition in their first week. They live with the weapon 24/7 during their time on Sand Hill. Even when not training for marksmanship, soldiers work on "ready up"/close combat drills, and safety has greater emphasis since the weapon is loaded with blanks at all times and an ND leads to recycles. Trainees also use clearing barrels whenever moving from outside to inside to get them used to the procedures they'll use in the real world.

US weapons training is done before BRM. The reasoning behind this is that young trainees with no shooting experience will consider the M16 an easily controlled pea shooter after firing the .50, MK19, M203, M240B, etc. When they do get to BRM and qualification, soldiers have already fired close quarters drills and spent dozens/hundreds of hours on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Somewhere in there, there's also squad live fire and convoy live fire in addition to the standard buddy team live fire.

Essentially, the attitude toward marksmanship changed from "let's get everyone qualified as quickly as possible so we can move on" to highlighting shooting and weapons handling as more important soldier skills.

 

[akodo]

I don't know about now but when I was in the Artillery I was qualified on the M16, pistol(both 1911, and m9), M2 .50cal, M60, and the Mark 19 grenade launcher. That was in peace time so I can imagine that today's soldiers are pretty well trained.

To this poster and many others, saying you "Qualified" means absolutely nothing to us. I have heard stories of navy men who were "qualified" in M9, but the whole time a marine had his hands wrapped around the shooters hands to totally control the weapon, and simply discharging the mag was sufficient to 'qualify'

 

[jayofthejungle1985]

In marine corps boot camp we learned basic marksmanship with the m16, very good instruction, a few days on a simulator, a few days lying prone sighting in(in basic you use a loop sling, lasoed around your armed) for hours. then a week off shooting everyday til qualifying the last couple days. after boot, at infantry school you shoot everything, m16, m249, 240g, m2, mk19... i was a anti-tank assaultman so also got to fire SMAW rocket launcher, blow up some stuff with c4, set off mines and make a bunch of improvised explosive stuff. once in the fleet, wh got a lot of live fire, i was a smaw GUNNER so got to qual and carry an m9, and had to carry the smaw also, A-gunners carry 16s, it just sucked that when we did most live fire exercises only
everyone got to fire their weapons except smaws so i just ran around going"bang bang" but its still good....
then random people get picked sometimes to go to different courses and whatnot, and comeback and teach your squad what you learned ex; M1 benelli course...FUN i had never fired a shotgun til then.... anyway yeah speaking for the marine corp, you get a fair amount of weapons training, btw this was 2000-2004


"the days....."

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Navy Marksmanship Team

All of the services have Marksmanship Teams that you can apply for membership in and they have regular matches. The Navy & Marine Corps have a joint annual Fleet Match that leads directly into their service championships. Lots of fun, and good camaraderie. The Army's marksmanship team is a full-time gig.

I've met and enjoyed the company of several other Navy, Marine & Coast Guard personnel who are 'into' shooting and participate regularly in IDPA, USPSA, and Navy Action Pistol Team (IDPA-style) events. Lots of good folks who enjoy the matches and who have CCW permits.