Custom Action: Rem 700 Clone or No?

[taliv]

for me it's never been the recoil that causes issues, so much as running into rocks or barricades or whatnot

 

[troy fairweather]

If you’re settled on a trued 700 as the basis for your project I’d suggest giving Long Rifles Inc. a call.

They have invested a lot in their capabilities to do this job to a high level of precision

Any idea what he charges

 

[Nature Boy]

Any idea what he charges

no idea

 

[Varminterror]

@Unicorn_Prince - when you’re considering blueprinting a 700, really be sure you understand for what you are paying. Lots of places will chase threads (require oversized threaded barrels forever on) and true receiver, lug, and bolt faces for around $200. That doesn’t improve extraction reliability, doesn’t reduce bolt slop in the bolt way, doesn’t ensure proper FP fit in the pin bore, doesn’t improve the bolt stop... by the time you talk about buying a Rem 700 action and having it truly blueprinted to the equivalent of a proper custom action, you can - and usually have - spent more than the custom action would have cost, and you’re still just left with a Remington if you ever choose to sell the rifle. An example of this - Northland sells “trued” Rem 700 actions for ~$500, which have had only the receiver face trued and the lugs lapped - which is a ~$100 upcharge over the non-blueprinted 700 factory actions they sell. Seems like a great deal for a “blueprinted action,” but you’re certainly not getting a product which is actually equivalent, even close to, a custom action which might cost $800 instead. Call around and ask smiths what they charge for bushing firing pins, sleeving bolts (or truing raceways and custom cutting bolts), milling m-16/sako extractors, chasing threads, truing lugs, truing and lapping bolt face, milling Lawton style bolt stops, upsizing rail screw holes, pinning an upsized recoil lug, etc - all of the things which would have to be done to bring it to functional and dimensional tolerance parity with custom actions... it’s easy to get over a thousand dollars into a Rem 700, and still only have an action worth $300 when it’s all said and done.

If you don’t like the looks of an integral picatinny rail, there are several custom actions which surpass blueprinted Remingtons for quality and features, even some at lower costs, which do not have integral rails. The Defiance Tenacity is a bolt on rail with integral lug, the Defiance Ruckus Ultralight (pictured below) has only two short rail sections. Stiller Predators, Bighorn actions, Shilen DGR’s, and many others are offered with either bolt on rails or integral 2 piece rails.

Defiance Ruckus Ultralight

 

[Llama Bob]

I strongly believe that unless you are going for extreme light weight (e.g. a Kimber 84 type action) that a square bottom is superior. Integral lugs are superior. CRF extractors are superior, and for dangerous game guns they should be unable to push feed (if it can pop over the rim going in, it can pop over going out). For small bores that's irrelevant. Blade type ejectors are better. Exposed triggers are better than cartridge triggers. Fast lock times are better than slow. Three position safeties are superior to 2-position (regardless of which position is omitted). Wing safeties are superior to side sliders or tang sliders.

The M700 and its clones fail on literally every single front except fast lock time. They were a cost cutting action marketed well. I can't imagine why anyone would choose to shoot one given the choice. I can't imagine why anyone would clone one. I certainly can't imagine exchanging money for such a thing.

 

[taliv]

guess it's a good thing there are lots of options on the market, because I prefer round over flat, push feed vs crf, m16 style extractors and no safety at all

 

[Seamaster31]

I have to disagree. Gunsmithing is one of my hobbies and I have trued a fair number of 700 actions. The 700 action was the premier benchrest action at one time, but that has changed with the times. If I was going to build a BR rifle from scratch I would start with a Bat action, but there are other very popular BR actions that others choose. When I want to build an accurate hunting rifle I start with a 700 action and don't change the extractor. For a DG hunting action I start with a crf action. I also have spoken with good professional gunsmiths that will do a fine job for somewhere in the $200 range. A trued 700 action is a very good choice for most fellows and is not a waste of time and money.

 

[Llama Bob]

guess it's a good thing there are lots of options on the market, because I prefer round over flat, push feed vs crf, m16 style extractors and no safety at all

OP is asking about a hunting gun. No safety may be an option for some applications, but not his.

 

[taliv]

OP is asking about a hunting gun. No safety may be an option for some applications, but not his.

Closing the bolt is much safer and more reliable than depending on bolt gun safeties.

 

[Llama Bob]

Ahh, you're that guy. Suffice to say I don't think much of your advice

 

[Nature Boy]

This example isn’t a 700 but it has similar monetary considerations.

I had an FN SPR action (FN made Model 70) built into a custom hunting rifle. The gunsmith did the standard blueprinting work to ensure squaring to bore axis, proper lug engagement, ignition timing, etc.

It would be unlikely for me to get even a fraction of that cost back if I ever sold it. I ended up spending a lot more than I had originally intended, which is easy to do on these kinds of projects.

I have a rifle that I sunk way more into it than it’s worth on the used market. So what. It’s fantastic and I’m not selling it anyway.

 

[MCMXI]

@Nature Boy, that FN is such a great rifle. Not only does it shoot and function well based on your earlier posts, but it also looks right.

Ted of American Rifle Company has some interesting thoughts on integral recoil lugs, integral rails, cock on opening, cock on closing etc. I don't agree with all of his comments but he does make some excellent points, and his receivers are held in high regard.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I have custom actions as well as factory and trued up Remingtons. They win the popularity contest but Tikka and Savage have started giving them a run for their money.

I'm not a big hunter but I will say that I'm happy with the Stiller and Defiance actions on my rifles.

 

[Unicorn_Prince]

@Varminterror that's a lot of information but exactly what I was looking for. I'm apparently no closer to making a decision now than I was a week ago lol. I'm glad you came across this thread.

 

[Unicorn_Prince]

@Llama Bob you also gave me a lot of features to research because I understand the differences between very few of the things you mentioned.

 

[Unicorn_Prince]

I have a rifle that I sunk way more into it than it’s worth on the used market. So what. It’s fantastic and I’m not selling it anyway.

I will agree %100 with that. If I build a custom rifle I have vno intentions of selling it so resale value is no concern. If I can use this gun for 30 years I'll get more than my money's worth which I plan to keep any firearm I buy indefinitely

 

[Unicorn_Prince]

Exposed triggers are better than cartridge triggers

that a square bottom is superior.

@Llama Bob can you (or anyone here) explain what you mean by round vs square bottom and exposed vs cartridge trigger? Thanks, also for a purely hunting rifle after there action manufactures you would suggest over a Rem 700 or their clones?

 

[Llama Bob]

A square bottom action is flat on the bottom. The advantage compared to a round bottom action is that the action itself resists rotation while firing the shot, whereas a round action only the action screws and to an extent the recoil lug do. Since the barrel is rifled, there's actually a lot of torque on the action when the shot is fired. The plus side of round actions is they are cheaper (they can be made in a lathe if there's no integral recoil lug) and they can be bedded in a V-block vs the more time consuming bedding for a square bottom action.

Cartridge triggers look like this:


Open triggers look like this (also note the square bottom action):


The downside of cartridge triggers is that they are more prone to freezing up in cold weather and are not as tolerant of dirt etc because the housing holds dirt, moisture, and excess lube in. It's only a minor issue on a small bore, but on a dangerous game action a cartridge trigger is a deal breaker IMO. I still prefer open triggers as losing a shot in bad weather sucks. The m700 factory triggers all suck, also - every single variation has been recalled for safety issues. The Timney aftermarket, while still a cartridge trigger with all the associated issues, is at least safe.

Actions I would recommend:
Pre-64 Winchester actions
Montana Rifle 1999 actions
CZ 550 actions with an AHR trigger and safety
Other post-WWII commercial Mauser actions (FN etc.) with a 3-position wing safety if desired

 

[Goosey]

The downside of cartridge triggers is that they are more prone to freezing up in cold weather and are not as tolerant of dirt etc because the housing holds dirt, moisture, and excess lube in. It's only a minor issue on a small bore, but on a dangerous game action a cartridge trigger is a deal breaker IMO. I still prefer open triggers as losing a shot in bad weather sucks.

In theory, but it should be noted military bolt-action sniper rifles of any reasonably modern design use enclosed triggers, and those are of course used in conditions from well below freezing, to dust storms in the Middle East.

 

[Llama Bob]

And I'm sure they can be made to freeze up fairly easily. This isn't speculation. I've had cartridge triggers freeze up on me. It sucks, because you don't know it's happened until you're about to fill a tag and then... no. Fixing it requires thawing the rifle, which is generally not field expedient so to speak.

Not everything that's military is good.

 

[Llama Bob]

Also note that while the US military has made one choice, may other purchasers of sniper rifles demand the opposite - there's a reason the FN SPR uses an exposed trigger instead of the standard FN Winchester action with the MOA trigger for example.

 

[Unicorn_Prince]

A square bottom action is flat on the bottom. The advantage

I won't quote the whole thing but that clears things up quite a bit. Thanks for the great info

 

[Varminterror]

Considering principles of Dangerous Game Rifle design doesn’t make much sense for a rifle to be built in 6.5-284 or 6.5 PRC.

I wonder why the left-twist barrels out there don’t unscrew themselves from the action? Hint - it’s because the torque generated to overcome the bullets rotational inertia is much lower than some folks speculate.

 

[Llama Bob]

Considering principles of Dangerous Game Rifle design doesn’t make much sense for a rifle to be built in 6.5-284 or 6.5 PRC.

I wonder why the left-twist barrels out there don’t unscrew themselves from the action? Hint - it’s because the torque generated to overcome the bullets rotational inertia is much lower than some folks speculate.

The torque to install barrels is HUGE - usually 60 ft/lbs or more - of course it doesn't overcome that. What are you even talking about? **looks at your user name** Oh....

All the features I described with the exception of preventing extractor pop over on CRF actions are desirable for non-DG applications, and I noted SPECIFICALLY that that one only applied to larger bores. Having your rifle cycle reliably is useful for shooting pretty much anything in the field.

 

[Varminterror]

Just offering some calibration to this:

The advantage compared to a round bottom action is that the action itself resists rotation while firing the shot, whereas a round action only the action screws and to an extent the recoil lug do. Since the barrel is rifled, there's actually a lot of torque on the action when the shot is fired.

The “small actual torque” generated as a bullet is forced to start rolling in the barrel is a very different thing than the imaginary “lot of torque on the action when the short is fired.”