Custom built Brown TL-30 double door Safe

[renotse]

Presenting my new Brown TL-30 Safe. 78x48x28 weight 4400 lbs

1" Steel door with 2" high strength composite amalgamate - 1/2" steel body with 2 1/2" amalgamate. 14 ga outer skin

It has dual LaGard 6441 redundant mechanical locks.

All the shelves and gun racks are adjustable or removable except the lowest full width shelf.

Brown worked with me to do a complete custom size, interior and lock design.

They were a pleasure to work with. What do you think?

The pictures below are my actual safe before it shipped. Brown was generous enough to use their photo studio to do the photographs.

 

[rcmodel]

Impressive!

But where do the long guns go??

Looks like mostly all shelves to me?

Rc

 

[renotse]

The whole interior is convertible. 3 shelves on each side come out or can be moved up or down to suit your application. I know its a little overkill, but I wanted it that way so it could be set up with long guns on one side and carbines on the other. Or all guns on one side and all shelves on the other.

 

[rcmodel]

I see!

Very cool!!

rc

 

[4v50 Gary]

Nice! That must have set you back some ducats.

 

[renotse]

self delete

 

[renotse]

The Bitterness of Poor Quality Remains Long After the Sweetness of Low Price

Nice! That must have set you back some ducats.

I figured Buy once cry once..... actually that's not entirely true. I have two cheap big box store safes that I have outgrown a Cannon and an AMSEC. But this is the first high end real security safe I have purchased.

This Brown is basically a commercial jewelry safe sized and outfitted for guns. Contents insurable to $350k

I had a very specific location for the safe and I wanted to maximize my safe volume without modifying my house.

I strongly considered Graffunder and AMSEC RFX as alternatives, but a double door Graffunder was a bridge to far for me. And AMSEC was not flexible with their customization. Also AMSEC warranty was an issue for me after the fiasco that AMSEC has been having with its BF series of safes warping and de-laminating after a couple of years.

This one came in shipped to me for about the same price as a single door Graffunder C7248 C rate without the redundant lock. The F rate Graffunder was $ 5k more than I paid for this one.


Brown was my choice. It took a while to get it designed and made to my specs, but very happy with the choices I made.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

That's interesting, particularly the comment about Graffunder not wanting to work with you on the custom interior. A number of years ago I sold a very similar Graffunder, double door, two locks, though somewhat bigger, and a custom build too. There was no problem getting it done to the customer's satisfaction. That was not an isolated instance either. If you care to find Trent's post here on THR, he described the delivery of his Graffunder with a custom interior.

I'd be interested in a PM detailing who the O.P. worked with.

900F

 

[renotse]

I did consult with the local Graffunder dealer. Yes Graffunder would do custom work. I probably could have pushed it hard enough to make it happen. But, the cost was out of my range. It would have been over $16 k for a Graffunder equivalent installed.

This was a difficult decision but here are several reasons I went with Brown.

1)Double door is their standard on safe 48" wide & up. I really wanted double door.
2)TL-30 (F-rate) for the price of Graffunder C-rate because of local sales tax
3)Better fire rating and design, Graffunder uses rock wool in the door instead of concrete, and the heavy steel is outside where it will absorb heat in a fire, making the safe an oven.
4)The Brown warranty appealed to me since I was putting serious money in upgrade locks.
Every safe we produce carries a 50 year warranty. This covers the entire safe, including the lock, bolts, etc..it is a true 50 year warranty. If you have a problem with your safe we want to hear about it, and we will make it right...period.

 

[CB900F]

Renotse;

Matters of price I can't speak to, I'm retired these days. I will note though that when I was actively selling safes, I had no competition from Brown on price.

That being said, I will express my difference of opinion on your third bullet point. The Graffunder door for a C rate safe is 1 inch of solid plate steel. Behind that is a 3.5 inch deep inner compartment that contains the lockworks and insulation. The door steel is twice as thick as the wall plate, therefore it takes a significantly longer time for a thermal penetration through the thicker steel. Graffunder's insulation is quite adequate to the task of providing door thermal protection in line of that with the other five sides that do have a concrete medium for insulation. I'll also note that the Graffunder concrete contains a vermiculite fiber that makes it considerably more difficult to get the hot spot going for a torch attack. Their medium is far more effective at wicking heat away from the torch attack point than pure concrete. As for the argument that the outer layer of steel then bakes the interior of the safe, all I can say is that it's rather well known that you subject "this" amount of insulation to a heat soak, it does not have a significant difference in protective ability as to whether or not the heat is applied to one side or the other. OTOH, the lighter gauge metal exterior of the Brown is obviously more prone to taking damage from lesser impacts.

It's a design difference, but better? I think not, merely different.

900F

 

[renotse]

CB900F makes very good points. Graffunder makes an excellent Real Gun Safe. If it had been UL TL rated I might have gone that way. That coupled to the cost gap formed the basis for decision.

I did pretty serious diligence to make this decision.

I used independent security company advice when I made my final choice. One such source is Silva Consultants

http://www.silvaconsultants.com/index.html

point #4 from their Guidelines for Choosing a Safe

For best results, choose safes that have a recognized UL rating. Be careful when choosing a safe that has a letter rating (B, B4, C, E, F, M, etc.) unless it also has a UL rating (TL-15, etc.) While there are some non-UL-rated safes that can provide adequate protection, you are always taking a chance when you buy a non-rated safe. Watch out for claims of burglary-resistance or fire resistance that are not substantiated by a specific UL rating.

The construction benefits of heavy steel on outside or inside is widely debated, but most TL rated safes in the past several decades have been designed with concrete on outside for both security and fire protection advantages

Here is a 20 year old video of a safe undergoing a UL TL-30 test. The safe in the video is constructed with heavy steel inside and Concrete outside sheathed in light gauge steel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860

Again through my diligence I decided that I preferred the more conventional design of Heavy steel box clad with high strength amalgamate sheathed in light gauge steel.

As to CB's comment on impact damage on the exterior I'm not to concerned unless that damage is severe enough to cause failure. Here is a video of a Brown composite clad safe subjected to exterior impact. You be the judge.

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/tv/showdown-of-the-unbeatables/taking-an-i-beam

 

[CB900F]

Renotse;

Yes, Graffunder does not carry a U.L. TL/TR type rating. There's a reason for that. The U.L. demands that if a safe is tested to their specifications and passes, then every safe that carries the U.L. certification label be constructed exactly that way. I can certainly understand why they specify that condition.

However, in Graffunder's case, I feel there's a valid reason why they don't submit to U.L. testing. Graffunder locates the relocker bolts at random points within the safe. Therefore, Graffunder would have to build two safes, one to test and one for the consumer to buy, in order to meet U.L.'s conditions. Or, conversely, let's say eight safes to test, one for each relocker variant. U.L. testing is not petty cash cheap. Graffunder refuses to alter their build standard, U.L. refuses to modify their conditions, and the consumer doesn't want to bear the ultimate cost of the quite expensive testing.

Graffunder feels that the random relocker points prevent a felon from learning how to open one Graffunder & then being able to far more easily defeat the rest of the line. The consumer has to determine if that feature is worth it to them vs the U.L. certificate.

900F

 

[renotse]

Graffunder locates the relocker bolts at random points within the safe.

Yes I was really impressed with the random relocker location feature. Also the fact that Graffunder completely encased the lock in Hardened tool steel on all sides.

But in the end I made my choice. Graffunder is a superb safe.

 

[CB900F]

Renotse;

And I have no problem telling you that you got a very good unit.

900F

 

[Shaq]

Nice safe. But for that price, I sure hope ya got lots of expensive things to put in it.

 

[SigTT45]

Very nice safe! I hope one day to move up to a TL30 level and your safe definitely looks like one to consider.

 

[renotse]

Very nice safe! I hope one day to move up to a TL30 level and your safe definitely looks like one to consider.
February 27, 2016 03:57 PM

Thank You

The reason for this post was not brag about my safe. It was to describe my journey and to add to the knowledge base which I found very lacking and riddled with misinformation.

Specifically the information on the 6441 lock is very hard to come by.

I learned from safe professionals that one of the most valuable applications for the 6441 is on High Security Safes, since they are so hard to drill if a lock fails

Everyone who is thinking of buying a safe should see this video. Security on Sale gun safe prying video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBhOjWHbD6M

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I'm very familiar with the "Security On Sale" video, I know who made it & where it was done. The points it makes are valid, some of the criticism of it is not.

If you examine the movement patterns of the "burglars", you'll soon see that they haven't rehearsed beforehand. If they had, the unit compromised could have been popped in even less time. Yes, it was flopped on it's back & that did give them more leverage. However, keep in mind that the video was produced as a sales tool, not a how to for burglars. If the unit had been kept upright, the two would have still gotten in, but it would have taken longer. The prospective customer in a shop will sit & pay attention for the length of that video in the vast majority of cases. Quadruple the time to open the unit & the effectiveness of the sales tool drops to very nearly nothing.

The burglars would probably have popped it in under 10 minutes had it been upright, still well under the average response time for police in this country. The additional time to clean it out & leave? We're still in or at that 10 minute window.

If you take nothing else from the video, it's that the number & size of the locking bolts don't really matter if they're locking up behind bent sheet metal. Examine the outer shell and door jamb of a typical RSC in a big-box store. Notice that the side wall bends to the front face, bends again to be the door recess, bends a third time as the door stop, a fourth and fifth time as the bolt engagement. Bent sheet metal is not structurally sound enough to provide good protection & the video makes that clear.

900F

 

[renotse]

If Brown can Build this

http://www.brownsafe.com/monument-vault-door/

I'm sure they can get a TL-30 right

 

[Walkalong]

the number & size of the locking bolts don't really matter if they're locking up behind bent sheet metal.

This is where all the cheap "safes" fail. Nothing on the door side to keep the bolts from pivoting in until the door pops open, and not much resistance on the body side (Bent sheet metal) to keep them from popping loose from the body.

The bolt should be supported on both ends on the door side and be behind a substantial piece of metal etc on the body side.

 

[renotse]

This is where all the cheap "safes" fail. Nothing on the door side to keep the bolts from pivoting in until the door pops open, and not much resistance on the body side (Bent sheet metal) to keep them from popping loose from the body.

The bolt should be supported on both ends on the door side and be behind a substantial piece of metal etc on the body side.

I agree with that last statement 100%

Yes there is a huge difference on how the bolts are secured to the door. I have attached a compilation of three different approaches to the same problem.

Challenge - Multiple bolts must move in sync with the actuation of the handle, while passing through "substantial" guides that should be firmly attached to the door.

The best way in my opinion, and as you described, is to have the (large dia. and Long) bolts pass through 2 guides (of heavy plate) that are welded directly to the Plate Door and spaced at the extreme limits of the bolt length.

Other methods of diminishing structural integrity are commonly used. See photo

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

Of course, with the Graffunder, you can't get a credit card into the crack between the door & the frame. Mighty hard to exert enough force to spring the door when you can't get an effective tool in place. Take a look at the space between door & frame on other units.

900F

 

[renotse]

Fella's;

Of course, with the Graffunder, you can't get a credit card into the crack between the door & the frame. Mighty hard to exert enough force to spring the door when you can't get an effective tool in place. Take a look at the space between door & frame on other units.

900F

I might be wrong but this does not look like A Graffunder.... but it must be, because the credit cards won't go in all the way

 

[CB900F]

Renotse;

I didn't state that Graffunder was the only maker capable of that fit, and I certainly didn't mean to imply it either. But the fact remains that if the door fit is tight, and plate steel, a successful prying attack is a remote possibility regardless of methods of bolt support.

900F

 

[renotse]

Renotse;

I didn't state that Graffunder was the only maker capable of that fit, and I certainly didn't mean to imply it either. But the fact remains that if the door fit is tight, and plate steel, a successful prying attack is a remote possibility regardless of methods of bolt support.

900F

Yes you are Right you did not specifically State that Graffunder was the only one capable of credit-card-tight fit, but you did challenge readers to:

Fella's;
Take a look at the space between door & frame on other units.
900F

The Sturdy folks will be glad to know that they have impenetrable protection.