Customize defensive firearms?

[Deanimator]

Iook at the Zimmerman case and media coverage don't you think the media and courts would of capitalized on "IF" he had a aftermarket 3lb trigger and words like GET SOME on his slide that would of been a huge topic all over the news, we don't get to pick our jury or God forbid the situation of when and where something may happen.

They wouldn't have needed to.

Zimmerman's an idiot who can't keep his mouth shut or obey advice of counsel.

He could have defended himself with a "smart" gun with a 25lb. trigger pull and a two key fail safe system like a Minuteman missile and gotten a signed statement from Trayvon Martin that he was trying to beat Zimmerman to death for racial reasons and still would have dug himself a deep hole with his big mouth.

I'm in no way concerned about the 3.5lb. connectors in my Glocks or the Pachmayrs and trigger job on my 3" Model 65.

I'd DAMNED well better be concerned about any foolish statements against penal interest I make after shooting a thug who bangs my head on the ground, trying to kill me.

In the words of Ron White, he had the right to remain silent, but not the ability.

 

[Jack B.]

I'm not to sure if adding anything to a gun you use in a defensive situation would hurt you legally ,but I'm not taking any chances of hurting me or my family because I did something to the weapon that is considered a custom change. IMO, when it comes to a self defense weapon just buy what you need from the manufacturer and leave it alone.

 

[Deanimator]

IMO, when it comes to a self defense weapon just buy what you need from the manufacturer and leave it alone.

At what price?

Does it make sense for somebody without unlimited resources to spend $3,000 on a semi-custom handgun or to spend $400 on a police surplus Glock 19, a 3.5lb. Ghost connector and a tube of Flitz for the "$0.25 trigger job"?

 

[Jack B.]

$3000?

 

[Hanzo581]

What quality firearms have such bad triggers that they simply will not do for defensive use? I mean 7 yards or less in the vast majority of cases.

 

[Deanimator]

What quality firearms have such bad triggers that they simply will not do for defensive use? I mean 7 yards or less in the vast majority of cases.

I didn't realize it at the time, but my Glock 22 had the "New York" trigger, which was utter GARBAGE. I couldn't get that drek out of the gun fast enough. It's now got a 3.5lb. Ghost connector and had the "$0.25 trigger job" done on it. I did likewise with my VA Beach Sheriff's Dept. surplus Glock 19, which had some sort of hybrid between the standard 5.5lb. trigger and the NY Atrocity.

Like I said, I don't have qualified immunity or a union backing me up. I actually have to hit what I'm shooting at and NOBODY will make excuses for me if I shoot the wrong person.

 

[Kleanbore]

How many have you interviewed that have stated a cosmetic gun modification affected their legal decision in an SD case?

Glenn Meyer's article on jury simulation experiments concerning firearms appearance should put that one to rest.

 

[Snyper]

Glenn Meyer's article on jury simulation experiments concerning firearms appearance should put that one to rest.

So it's just another crafted scenario in the end?

 

[Kleanbore]

So it's just another crafted scenario in the end?

????

It is a controlled scientific experiment to determine what effect, if any, the appearance of a firearm may have on jurors' conclusions, all the things being equal.

It;s just about the only way to assess that.

Have your read the article?

 

[Snyper]

It is a controlled scientific experiment to determine what effect, if any, the appearance of a firearm may have on jurors' conclusions, all the things being equal.

It;s just about the only way to assess that.

Have your read the article?

I didn't read every word, but saw enough to tell it has little to do with anything other than appearances, and it's still a "simulation" as you said.
A simulation isn't reality.

It;s just about the only way to assess that.

The only reliable way is to ask jurors in actual cases.
My comments had nothing to do with a firearms appearance.

 

[Old Dog]

Just what is it that you would like to know about all of the court cases involving armed action, the descriptions of the weapons used, other aspects of the trials, and the outcomes?

Why would anything about them be available for you to read?

Do you really think that the individual, personal views of jurors about firearms (or about other evidence) that they have been shown during extended criminal trials that involved multiple uncertainties are routinely made known, much less recorded and submitted for internet articles?

Today's internet surfers have become increasingly more naive about that can be found in the ether.

There is, however, a way to test the theory and to prove the point, That is through scientifically-conducted jury simulation experiments, in which only one variable is changed at a time.

It has been done.

See this:

http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/0...s-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/

I am not a criminal lawyer. I have, however, spent a bit of time in courtrooms during both criminal and civil trials.

While it's currently trendy (with even a CBS television series) to try to predict both views and opinions of jurors and potential jurors, academic research doesn't -- and cannot usually -- take into account the personalities and competence of the individual prosecutors or defense attorneys, nor can it predict the courtroom demeanor of defendants, all of which contributes greatly to verdicts.

And yes, there has been a great deal of post-trial interviewing and polling of trial jurors and spectators, which sometimes does make it into the media reporting.

In the end, it's normally the person that's convicted (or not), not the weapon used ...

 

[Bad Ninja]

Glenn Meyer's article on jury simulation experiments concerning firearms appearance should put that one to rest.

Care to link it or give me the title?

I would be interested in reading it for myself.
All I have seen here is conjecture based on opinion.

It's a very relevant and interesting topic when appearances matter more than actual facts in a courtroom.

FYI- new grips and maybe sights are about as far as I would customize my carry handgun.
I personally, need to trust factory engineering and manufacture or I wouldn't carry the gun.
I'm not smarter than John Browning.

 

[Deanimator]

What quality firearms have such bad triggers that they simply will not do for defensive use? I mean 7 yards or less in the vast majority of cases.

Not that long ago, a female cop shot at a [non-poisonous] snake in a tree from a lot closer than that. She missed and hit a young boy a block or two away, killing him.

I don't recall her being indicted, convicted, or serving jail time. I suspect that I would be treated somewhat differently...

 

[Kleanbore]

Care to link it or give me the title?

The link is included in Posts 34 and 48. It has been posted many times on THR in the past several years.

All I have seen here is conjecture based on opinion.

Much of the opinion set forth on this subject here is based on that article and on discussions of expert witnesses who have put hurter own articles out for all to see.

t's a very relevant and interesting topic when appearances matter more than actual facts in a courtroom.

Yes indeed!

QUOTE="Bad Ninja, post: 10571511, member: 245044"]I personally, need to trust factory engineering and manufacture or I wouldn't carry the gun.[/QUOTE]My thoughts exactly.

 

[fastbolt]

Not that long ago, a female cop shot at a [non-poisonous] snake in a tree from a lot closer than that. She missed and hit a young boy a block or two away, killing him.

I don't recall her being indicted, convicted, or serving jail time. I suspect that I would be treated somewhat differently...

Just as with any shooting, it depends on the circumstances and facts developed during the investigation, and the local laws.

Are you thinking about this case in OK several years ago? (Or, do cops back in that part of the country normally try to shoot snakes out of trees?)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/0...l-5-year-old-boy-while-shooting-at-snake.html

The outcome?

Both officers pleaded "no contest" to second degree involuntary manslaughter.

However, the way the law worked, the records were eventually expunged several years later.

http://kfor.com/2013/08/12/officers-record-cleared-after-deadly-shooting/

 

[Jack B.]

All I know for sure once you pull the trigger on a gun you are legally responsible for where that bullet goes and what it does.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I didn't read every word, but saw enough to tell it has little to do with anything other than appearances, and it's still a "simulation" as you said.
A simulation isn't reality.

The only reliable way is to ask jurors in actual cases.
My comments had nothing to do with a firearms appearance.

... I thought this whole thread was about appearances, though.

And asking jurors in actual cases is not actually a reliable indicator, because all jurors and all cases are different.

I think my approach to it is CYA. I'm not against all modifications to carry guns, all of mine have been modified. But... Can You Articulate the reason for your modification? Does the articulation give anyone an extra excuse to look at you like a nut?

Another valid question I think about trigger modifications would be how exactly your trigger pull becomes an evidence exhibit.

I am just throwing this out here and don't presume to know the answer, but if your trigger work still leaves your pull weight within factory specifications, how would anyone know anything other than "The firearm was in good working condition and within factory specifications"?

 

[Deanimator]

Are you thinking about this case in OK several years ago? (Or, do cops back in that part of the country normally try to shoot snakes out of trees?)

Yep, that's it.

 

[JO JO]

but if your trigger work still leaves your pull weight within factory specifications

That's different then installing a 3lb hair trigger in my opinion

 

[GunnyUSMC]

After reading this topic, I am wondering if we are still talking about Customize defensive firearms or will you get in trouble if your gun looks evil.
I do know this. There are a lot of things being said by people that know little about what they are talking about. Some people watch to much TV.
I've been a LEO for 17 years. I have worked in the firearms section of a Crime LAB for the last five years. The biggest thing you have to worry about when it comes to your SD gun is that it is legal. If it is, you have won half the battle already. Court cases are determined on facts, not scary stickers.

I agree that anything that will improve your SD gun is good. But then again about the only thing that is done to any of my carry guns is a trigger upgrade, if needed.
Now I do have an AR15 rifle that is a mock-up of the one of the rifles from the Lone Survivor movie. Does this make me a bad person or a poser? NO.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Now I do have an AR15 rifle that is a mock-up of the one of the rifles from the Lone Survivor movie. Does this make me a bad person or a poser? NO.

Perhaps not to you. But Suzi Soccermom on your jury might well be another matter.

 

[Deanimator]

That's different then installing a 3lb hair trigger in my opinion

Calling a 3lb. trigger a "hair trigger" says more about your firearms knowledge than the intent of the person who has one.

I suspect that if you measured the weight of the trigger of my Savage 112BVSS when set, you'd accuse me of genocide...

 

[Deanimator]

Perhaps not to you. But Suzi Soccermom on your jury might well be another matter.

Suzi might be a member of "Black Lives Matter" and vote to convict solely on the basis of your being White, too.

Or she might be a member of CAIR and vote to convict solely on the basis of your last name being Chaimowitz.

Or she might be a member of the National Alliance and determine that you've failed the "paper bag" test.

That's why they have voir dire and why your counsel should both educate himself on relevant details and be ready to call expert witnesses..

 

[Varminterror]

After pulling some of the cited works in the article @Kleanbore linked, I recognized some of the works, but hadn't seen that particular article nor the simulation results. None of the results are surprising - it's purely intuitive once you consider the logic - but I'm glad to copy and save that particular work for my own records and reference.

I REALLY want to see this simulation recreated in about 10-15yrs. We've seen a massive boom in AR-15 prevalence in the last decade, and have even seen positive-leaning news stories when AR's have been used in defense - so I'm wondering as the older generation starts washing out of the juror pool, will these results change?

I will say, in reading it - the "appearance" of the firearm, within the same model, is only mentioned in specifically in one of the cases cited in the article (Florida v. Roten), and at least in this particular case, it was NOT a defensive shooting, but rather a criminal attack. Splitting hairs, sure - but it apparently WAS used as damning evidence of premeditation or intent in that case. It's logical a tactical looking rifle would be seen as more threatening and yield a more negative juror response than one less so - but that's a comparison of an AR-15 to a Mini-14, not a comparison of an AR-15 with a Punisher Skull or Zombie Shark engraved in the receiver compared to one with a Bushmaster Rattle Snake or DPMS Panther.

The entire premise of that article and that of those arguing against APPEARANCE modifications to firearms and resulting juror opinion is completely logical - if you intentionally appear threatening, you should expect to be perceived as having done so. Look at the news coverage after any shooting in recent eras - they go straight to social media, then cite the devolution of the shooter or the violent nature or unstable mental condition, so on, so forth... Many of us here, placed under media investigation, could be cited for having made thousands and thousands of posts about firearms online for many years... Spin that negatively in a liberal media outlet and it sounds terrible, and could sway juror opinion.

I'll say, alternatively - I don't know if I really expect a pink and purple, flowered paint job on an AK-74 to help uplift juror opinion as much as an aggressive sentiment on your rail cover would negatively affect juror opinion. I had a conversation once with my business attorney about an engraving of archangel Michael on my Glock - his guidance was while it might suit in the Midwest, I might be viewed in more liberal courts as a religious fanatic, appearing to believe I was doing God's will... It's all about perception.

I assume, however, since this thread originated from another thread on TRIGGER modifications, the intentional modification of outward appearance and the result of such on juror opinion is only the tip of the iceberg, and probably the easiest answer to the "do modifications increase risk of conviction?" question. It's simple - purposefully make it look threatening, it will be perceived as such. But what about reloaded ammunition? What about deactivating a magazine disconnect? What about having trigger work done? Installing an aftermarket trigger? Are there any cases where a functional modification, not aesthetic modification, has lead to a bad shoot conviction or civil liability IN A DEFENSIVE SHOOTING which would (most likely - as we can only speculate, right?) should have been considered a good shoot without the modification?

 

[Kleanbore]

A simulation isn't reality.

Well- designed and well conducted simulation is an accepted and effective method for planning trial strategies; for air-to-air combat training; for developing and testing procedures for disaster management; for the evaluation of weapon system effectiveness; fours in automotive crash-wordiness evaluation; and for the establishment of performance specifications.

The only reliable way is to ask jurors in actual cases.

That would be impractical in the extreme. There have been far too many trials, each with far too many variables.

My comments had nothing to do with a firearms appearance.

The OP mentioned "visual customization"--appearance.

Dr. Meyer's article addresses that rather well, I think, but if you are referring to someone like the resection of trigger pull weight, do some searching--that has been covered here ad nauseam over the years.