Cutter or Plugger Ammo

[FuzzyBunny]

Has anyone heard of the Cutter ammo that was supposed to be used about 10 or 15 years ago by the fed LEOs?

From what I was told it is a large mouth hollow point that has the mouth edges made of a tempered sharpened steel. This ammo was a special issue made for dynamic entry team and others to be used when going against bad guys who were known to wear soft body armor.

From what I have heard it is a fast round made to defeat soft body armor. As I recall hearing it had a 2 part bullet where the base fell away in flight or would seperate upon impact. This would leave an open based bullet that did not expand but cut leather and kevlar pretty well. It was also very expensive and did not have good accuracy down range and was designed for 15 yard work.

The first few times I heard about it in the LEO community I just chalked it up as BS. A retired friend of mine brought it up last week and said he actually saw the testing video on the round in the 90s. This friend is one who would actually know of such things and is an avid collector. He could not recall if it was a round used by the ATF or DEA. It was an option for some gov enforcement agency though.

This is of course a LEO only round. I am not looking to make or use or buy or collect any of these. I'm just wondering if they really do/did exist?

FB

 

[SDC]

There are a couple of rounds that this COULD be; one of them would be the PMC Ultramag, which was (originally) a bronze tubular bullet pushed by a synthetic base plug that fell away after exiting the muzzle. After bronze was outlawed by the "cop-killer bullet ban", PMC made the same round for a while using copper instead of bronze, but the round never sold well enough for them to keep it in production anyway, so they dropped the whole idea. Another possibility would be one of several designs by a fellow by the name of Flateau, whose designs had both solid-based and tubular versions, and most of these were produced by a company called Guilford Engineering Associates (GEA); these never really left the experimental stage, but were apparently highly efective at piercing various types of armour. Here are two photographs showing an example of each type: in the upper photo, there is an early (bronze) Ultramag in the top row, 9th and 10th (sectioned and whole) rounds from the left; in the lower photo, there is a GEA-produced Flateau "cutter" with a machined steel core 7th and 8th from the left in the bottom row, between the MEN-D capped copper hollowpoint and the SFM THV. Hope this helps.

 

[Moonclip]

Anyone remember or have a pic of "pin grabber" ammo? I think Jim Cirillo of the NYPD stakeout squad had a hand it it's development. It sounds a little like that design.

 

[LeonCarr]

I bought a box of PMC Ultramag in .44 Special in about 1991 at a gun show. I took them out and shot them in my Redhawk like they were Blazers. Big splash when they hit a three liter coke bottle full of water.

Ahh, the follies of youth .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[mgregg85]

Whats the gray plastic thing in the pictures?

 

[SDC]

That's an early Taser cartridge; the darts in the current version are propelled by compressed gas, but the original ones were propelled by (essentially) an electrically-fired 22 Short blank.

 

[TEDDY]

collection

very interesting collection

 

[texfed]

used to be

I remember the 'pin grabber' ammo, and I remember the article years ago about it. Cirillo had a few of his pics in the article. I guess the stuff never caught on. As a matter of fact , I can't remember the name of the publication, but it's not around today either. As I remember...the ammo had a large hollow point and the edges were really pointed like 'sharks teeth'.

By the way...being a 30 year Fed, that just retired......the only ammo we've ever used other than Winchester silver tip hollow points was the original Hydra Shock. I go back far enough ..that I can remember being issued .38 special +p+ rounds for my 2" model 10! Times Change!
Over the years there has been a lot of different ammo that floated around the academy for T&E, some pretty weird...some not. All vying for the federal contract.

By the way, also, contrary to popular opinion....using non issue ammo in your duty weapon was grounds for dismissal.

 

[Rossshady120]

Sky marshall's carry ceramic bullets they won't put a hole in the plane and they go 25 feet and drop i hear. plus sky marshall's can only fire when its a headshot they spend 3/4 of there career in the sky and the 1/4 is spent at the range.

 

[AndyC]

You heard wrong.

I also remember Pin-Grabbers, although I never got the opportunity to shoot any of it - it was a regular hollow-point bullet with a serrations around the cavity, supposedly so they would be more likely to dig into a bowling-pin and hurl it free of the table instead of sliding off and just toppling the pin.

The THVs (Tres Haute Vitesse = Very High Speed) in the pic (second row, first 4) remind me of the guy in Cape Town who started making them by copying the French originals in the late 80's - we had to use the fastest-burning powder we could find (shotgun powder, IIRC), fill the case to the top then fill the bullet-cavity as well (keeping it in with tissue-paper) before seating it into the case. A lot of fun against steel, but man, the muzzle-flash and concussion was tremendous.

The PMC Ultramag was what we called Cookie-cutter bullets over there.

 

[Rossshady120]

no i heard right check your sources http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002646.html

 

[Fat Boy]

Thanks for sharing that photo of the shells; most interesting!

 

[psyopspec]

Sky marshall's carry ceramic bullets they won't put a hole in the plane and they go 25 feet and drop i hear. plus sky marshall's can only fire when its a headshot they spend 3/4 of there career in the sky and the 1/4 is spent at the range.

Wrong:

"We're told to shoot to stop" and to "fire at the largest part of your body," said another air marshal who spoke on condition of anonymity. "We aim toward the chest. You might put one or more (bullets) in the head to incapacitate the nervous system."

Air marshals carry automatic .357 SIG Sauer pistols with a 12-round cartridge. The bullets are hollow-point and expand on entering a body. "It's one of the most high-powered rounds you can put in a weapon," the second air marshal said.

USA Today 12-07-2005

 

[VHinch]

no i heard right check your sources http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002646.html

Did you seriously just quote a blog as a "credible" source?

One, don't believe every urban legend you read on the internet. A bullet hole will not depressurize a plane, despite what you saw in Goldfinger.

Two, the Federal Air Marshal Service issues Sig Sauer 229's in .357 Sig, and no they don't use any uber-secret "ceramic" ammo. They carry standard JHP's like every other Federal Law Enforcement Agency.

Three, the Federal Air Marshal Service trains to shoot COM, again like every other Federal Law Enforcement Agency.

 

[AndyC]

no i heard right check your sources http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002646.html

My sources pwn yours, kid.

 

[mgregg85]

no i heard right check your sources http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002646.html

I read through that jumble of a blog and there wasn't a thing in it about ceramic bullets.

 

[SDC]

How is a "ceramic bullet" supposed to stabilize in a rifled barrel anyway? Some AP bullets have partial ceramic cores, but an AP bullet is the last thing you'd want in a crowded situation like an airplane to begin with. "Short-Stop" rounds (the 38 Spl rounds with a red plastic cap and orange "bag" projectile, in the 2nd picture above) were originally designed for early Sky Marshalls, because they had limited penetration, which was one of the things they worried about most. Since it's been proven that a bullet-sized hole in an aircraft WON'T cause explosive decompression, Sky Marshalls are now issued with standard JHP ammunition.

 

[CWL]

Sky marshall's carry ceramic bullets they won't put a hole in the plane and they go 25 feet and drop i hear. plus sky marshall's can only fire when its a headshot they spend 3/4 of there career in the sky and the 1/4 is spent at the range.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Being this is a gun site, amazing how little effort some people go to check their "facts". Amazing how Glaser Safety Slugs and other frangible bullets set in epoxy have become magic bullets that drop after 25 feet, perhaps they come with little chutes!

 

[Brian Williams]

This thread has derailed from the OPs intent.
I am putting a fork in it
and it is DONE.