Quantcast

CZ or Tanfoglio: Which do you prefer and why for competition?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by 460Shooter, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,527
    Location:
    The Land that Time Forgot
    A recent experience has me thinking about trying to get into a shooting league, if I can find one locally. There doesn't seem to be much going on anywhere around me.

    I'm interested in production guns, not highly modified race guns. Basically, if I couldn't also practically press a gun I used for competition into a self defense role of some sort, then it doesn't really matter to me.

    The full size semi autos I own now are as follows:
    S&W 1911 E series
    HK 45
    HK VP9
    Sig P220 10mm DA/SA
    Sig P220 10 mm SAO
    Wilson Combat/Beretta 92 Brig Tac (or WilBer as I refer to it)

    I think the only guns out of these that would make any sense is the VP9, if I added a long slide kit, or the WilBer. The VP9 has a super light frame though, and for that reason I just don't see it being the best option for competition. The Beretta is nice, and I did have Wilson work the trigger over, but I'm sort of in the exploration mindset right now.

    I do not own any CZ or Tanfoglio handguns, and I've always been curious about the design. I handled a Shadow 2 and it felt great in the hand. I could use a slightly larger grip, but it was pretty close. I've heard very good things about the Tanfoglio Limited lines, and that they can be tuned up to be truly wonderful guns. I've also been thinking about a Tactical Sport Orange if I wanted to go the SAO route.

    So I'm curious what folks with experience think about this. Even if I can't find a local league, or decide I don't care for it, I'm still interested in owning one of these guns. But I don't see myself buying all three.

    It's probably obvious I am not aware of all the competition rules that are involved and am really just saying at this point, "Gee that might be fun. I should look into a gun for that purpose." I suppose I better do more research into finding a local league and finding what they allow before buying anything. None the less, I'd like to here comparisons and thoughts on the Tanfo/CZ debate.
     
  2. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,458
    Location:
    Florida
    All I can say is the CZ 75 Shadow Target I have from the custom shop is the best most accurate 9mm I own. (it is all steel)I do not shoot competition.
    I hear lots of good things about the Tanfogilo but it is based of the CZ

    Before spending this kind of money it is best to be able to shoot them both and then decide.(whatever make or model)

    Most guns in this range are better than the shooters are.:D
     
    I6turbo and 460Shooter like this.
  3. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    7,156
    Oh boy! [rubs hands in glee at topic/question]

    Short version: Either brand is extremely suitable for these purposes. The most important thing is figuring out which of the equipment divisions you want to play in, and then buying an appropriate model - but both makers have highly competitive and comparable offerings for each division where they are relevant.

    Long version
    : Is long. You've been warned.

    Practical shooting competition divides up into a few games, and each of those games divides the compeition within the game up by equipment division. You can think of divisions as being like the different car classes in a Le Mans race - everyone is running on the same track, but the prototype cars and the GT cars are not really competing, because the technical advantages of the proto's are so great that you have to look at results separately. An even more basic analogy would be weight classes in the fighting games (boxing/wrestling/MMA).

    I'll talk about USPSA/IPSC because: 1) it's what I shoot and therefore know best; 2) it's larger and older than IDPA and the other offshoots; and 3) it's the best in terms of quality of competition and shooting demands. The last is only slightly subjective. ;)

    USPSA rules and how they relate to your question

    There are several equipment divisions in USPSA. A bunch of them - revolver, single-stack, pistol caliber carbine - are totally irrelevant to this discussion. Another one - Limited 10 - is totally irrelevant to anyone who doesn't live in a state like CA or MA where 11-round mags are illegal or hard to get in adequate quantities.

    So what are the relevant divisions that you might be choosing between? There are 3, primarily, with a 4th that I will also mention: Production, Limited, Carry Optics, and (this is the 4th one) Open. I'll try to briefly describe each one and why you might want to shoot it (or not shoot it). Once you figure out which one is most likely to appeal to you, that will narrow down your choices on models significantly.

    Production: Production requires use of DA/SA guns with the hammer down at the start of each stage (or a striker-fired gun) with iron sights only, and the guns have to come from a pre-approved list (it's a big list, but requires certain minimum volumes in the U.S. market and compliance with other specific rules). All guns are scored minor PF*, so the overwhelming majority of people shooting this division shoot 9mm. Magazines are limited to 10 rounds (you can use higher-capacity magazines, you just can't load more than 10 rounds). You have to have the holster and all magazines behind the front of the hip-bone (basically, 3 o'clock). This division emphasizes a lot of reloads (basically every time you move you're likely to be reloading), and puts a premium on accuracy due to the minor PF scoring. There are rules on what modifications can be done to the guns, but you can modify internals and hammers and triggers very liberally (but you've got to keep the gun DA/SA). You cannot add a magwell. You cannot add a thumbrest (although there's currently a rule interpretation that allows slide stops that has an integral thumb ledge to be allowed - which interpretation may or may not stay in place). The guns used generally still look at least a little like service-type guns.

    Limited: Limited allows SAO guns (or DA/SA guns cocked-and-locked at the start, or striker-fired guns) with iron sights only. Magazines are unlimited in capacity, but limited to 141mm in length (usually getting +4 to +6 capacity versus flush magazines with a shallow follower). Compensators/ports are prohibited. Other than that, shoot pretty much whatever you like. This division recognizes major scoring, but requires a .400/.10mm bullet in addition to the 165 PF. For this reason, almost everyone serious about this division shoots .40 cal. 45 doesn't give you any scoring advantage and kills magazine capacity, so nobody shoots that. 9mm won't let you get major scoring, which is generally not worth the tradeoff to get an extra 2-3 rounds. There are a few people who are so accurate that they are able to compete heads-up with minor scoring, but it is not advantageous. Stage times in this division will be faster than in Production, and refining sight pictures enough to guarantee all-A's just slows most shooters down way too much for that to work. Holsters can be wherever you want them on your belt, so if you want an appendix-carry position, for instance, this will let you do it. This is the division for people who want to shoot iron sights and don't mind a bit of recoil but otherwise want go really fast - but you'll want to shoot .40.

    Carry Optics: This is a relatively new division, but it is proving popular. It allows (actually requires) a slide-mounted red-dot sight. The base gun must be from the same approved list as for Production, and must remain DA/SA. This division also has a 45 ounce weight limit (including optic and empty magazine), which leads to some interesting weight-saving requirements on a lot of steel-framed guns. Magazines can be the same length as in Limited with no capacity limit. This only allows minor PF scoring, and with no fixed round count limits on the magazines, it's insane to shoot anything other than 9mm. Holsters have to be gun-bucket types (not the trigger-guard grabbing race holsters common in Limited and universal in Open), but they can go anywhere you want on the belt. This is the division for people who want to put a red-dot on their slide (and don't mind paying for the milling to get that done and to make weight), run extended mags, and shoot just as fast as the Limited guys. You have to shoot A's, but the red-dot and minor PF ammo makes that more easily achieved than in Limited or Production.

    Open: This is the nearly-unlimited division for the race guns with compensators and frame-mounted optics and 171mm magazines. Everyone who shoots this loads their own ammo. This is the harder drug that some people get into after a few years with the other stuff. There are CZ and Tanfoglio options for this division, so I mention it as a possibility, but I wouldn't suggest it for an entry point unless someone is ready to throw $5k-6k at racing gear from day 1. I know a couple of people who have done that, but they're either very rich or very broke. ​

    OK, those are the divisional flavors. Different guns will be suitable for different divisions, and the division rules make some guns (an iron-sighted SAO 9mm, for instance) non-optimal for anything. They're all fun, but if you're contemplating buying a gamer gun, it's best to start with some plan for shooting a particular division. You can always get different gear and change divisions later, but you want to buy something that fits in whatever you think is most likely to be fun.

    How CZ and Tanfoglio relate

    Now, we're almost ready to answer your question, but first lets straighten out something that people often get confused about. CZ and Tanfoglio guns are similar, but they are not the same. Decades ago, Tanfoglio (an Italian firearms maker that's only a few centuries old) got contracted to build some CZ-pattern guns during a time when CZ was still somewhat communist and couldn't/didn't export in volume and to all western/democratic countries. Tanfoglio got the plans, tooled up, and started making CZ-pattern guns. But, before long, they started tinkering with the design, and began an evolutionary divergence. Meanwhile, the politics changed, CZ started exporting more broadly, and started making their own refinements to their designs. For the past ~20 years, CZ and Tanfoglio have competed in the same competitive shooting marketplace. They have each borrowed things from each other. At this point, neither is a clone of the other... and parts interchangeability is pretty minimal in most cases. But they do have similar internal designs, and similar ergonomics and levels of performance. Most people who are familiar with one maker's gun of a broad type will feel comfortable with a gun of the other maker. People who like one generally like the other.

    One other point: EAA is the primary importer of Tanfoglios into the U.S. market. They don't make anything. In the last year, another importer - IFG (Italian Firearms Group) - has come online, and is allowed to import only those Tanfo' models that EAA doesn't. IFG's stuff is currently even less widely distributed than the EAA competition stuff, but there are a couple of their options that I would rate as particularly relevant to the Carry Optics division. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't worry about them, and just focus on the EAA-imported models, because IFG stuff is both harder to find and introduces the whole large frame/small frame rabbit hole that I am not going into I swear.

    Finally, some concrete, responsive answer to your question

    CZ and Tanfoglio have viable options in each of the divisions discussed above. Better than viable. Let's go through them.

    Production: You're looking at 9mm DA/SA guns for this. 4 of the last 5 USPSA Production national titles have been won by a guy (Ben Stoeger, who also won with Berettas before then) shooting a Tanfoglio Stock 2.** That's a bull/cone barreled gun with a full-length dustcover and a chrome finish. It's a little bigger and heavier than a CZ Shadow, but, like all Tanfoglios, has a deeper undercut to the beavertail (shorter trigger reach) and trigger guard than the standard CZ's and Shadow. There's also the Stock III, which is black rather than chrome, just a touch longer, has a rail on the bottom, and has a straight (not cone/bull) barrel. I think Stoeger uses these for his international IPSC matches, dues to slight rule differences, so he obviously thinks they work just as well.

    Before Stoeger made the Stock 2/II's (same thing) popular, CZ Shadows had become the dominant gun among people who wanted to shoot a steel-framed gun in production... and I suspect they are still the actual market leader. There's nothing that the Tanfo will be technically capable of doing that a Shadow cannot, but some people prefer the heft, beavertail undercut, and more aggressive checkering of the Tanfo. And that's why CZ came out with their Stock-2-killer Shadow 2, which basically adopts those features of the Stock 2. They're very nice guns. I honestly don't think you can go wrong picking between a Stock 2 versus a Shadow 2 - if those aren't the 2 best Production guns in the world (and they might be), then there is, at the very least, nothing that is better at all. If you show up to shoot Production with one of those, people will say, "Ah, a man of culture." Not really, but you won't ever have to answer questions about "why."

    As between the two of them, pick the one that you like best in your hand. If you can't handle both of them, pick the one you can handle (assuming you like it). If you can't handle either, pick the one you like the looks of better. No, seriously, that would be a fine way to choose. Just remember all these guns have removable grip panels, and there are multiple options for each, so don't choose based solely on liking CZ's beautiful electric blue grip panels. Unless you want to.

    Limited: This division is mostly filled with double-stack 2011's, most of them costing $2-$4k Tanfoglio and CZ offer awesome value in this space, with (IMO) no performance trade-off other than a marginal edge to 2011's in terms of how spectacular the trigger can be gotten. I think it's actually easier to keep the Tanfo's and CZ's reliable versus the 2011's, but you have more options for part sources and mods on the 2011's - not that there aren't a good variety of aftermarket things for

    Tanfoglio's Limited model is basically tailor-made for this division. That's what I have shot for several years. It has been robust, every bit as reliable as the Glocks and other service-type guns, and has entirely satisfied me. It's way more accurate than I am. I truly, truly, truly don't think I would have performed any differently with a 2011 costing 2-3 times as much. I've made a bunch of mods to mine (as anyone shooting Limited does to their guns), which I'm happy to discuss if you have specific questions.

    Similar to the production gun discussion above, there's a CZ (the Tac Sport, no longer in production) that was similar to the Limited, but with less undercut and less good checkering. It was based on a larger frame (similar to the CZ 97), and many people did have grip-reductions done on them to make them comfortable. And then CZ came out with the Tac Sport Orange, which, like the Shadow 2, adopted a lot of the things that maybe made the Tanfo' better (ergonomically for some people) than the prior CZ. So now this is another area in which I consider these to be very, very competitively equivalent guns. I recently bought another Tanfo' LTD, but that's because I know those guns and already have the spare parts. If someone took away my Limited gun and magazines and spares and replaced them with a Tac Sport Orange, I'd be mad because of the principle of the thing, but I'd get over it. Wouldn't change a thing about my shooting.

    Once again - handle both if you can and buy the one you like better. No wrong choice.

    Carry Optics: I have less to offer here, except to note that I think most of the DA/SA guns we're discussing are going to need slide-milling to make weight (even if it may just be the same milling for mounting the optic). The new IFG-imported Stock 1 (yes, it's got a lower number but is newer... freakin' Italians) looks like an interesting choice for this due to its slightly lighter weight IIUC. Similarly, I might look at the Shadow (not-2) for weight. But you should talk to someone who knows more than me about this.

    Open You're not gonna do this right now. If you are, let me know, because I have opinions on this topic, having just had an open gun built on a Tanfo' LTD base (which I love, BTW). But this is like picking a heroin/cocaine combo for your first foray into drugs (not that I think anyone should do drugs, just making an analogy). Probably not advisable.

    Conclusion

    I fully acknowledge that I didn't tell you to pick one brand over another. They're very comparable... it really is just taste and preference on little ergonomic things. If you just can't decide, go with the one(s) you can get a better deal on or can find in-stock when you're ready to plunk down your money.


    * Power factor is an integral component of most of the practical shooting games. It is basically a momentum calculation. Different sports have different momentum figures. USPSA actually has two different power factors: 125 for minor, 165 for major. For divisions that allow major scoring, A-zone hits (and steel) count 5 points, C-zone hits count 4 points, and D-zone hits count 2 points. For minor, A-zone hits (and steel) count 5 points, C-zone hits count 3 points, and D-zone hits count 1 points. Obviously, major PF generates more recoil, but the scoring advantage is pretty big. Minor PF really, really need to shoot a very high percentage of A's, whereas major PF shooters generally don't need to sweat C's at all. Some divisions score everything minor, though. And some divisions that do recognize major require a different minimum diameter bullet versus the overall baseline requirement of at least a .355/9mm bullet. At major matches, your ammo will be chronographed out of your gun and bullets will be pulled and weighed. At local/club matches, it is almost invariably based on the honor system where you declare whether you are shooting minor or (in divisions and calibers where permitted) major.

    ** IIRC, the interruption in his streak was by a guy shooting a Tanfo' Lim Pro - a slightly lighter, though still quite robust, gun without the full-length dust cover or bull barrel. EAA stopped importing those right before that guy won a national championship with one, and then they became unfindable. This is one of the models that IFG is now planning to bring back into the states, though I don't know if they're actually here yet. Their lower weight might make them interesting as a Carry Optics base gun.
     
    mdThanatos, Mizar, I6turbo and 3 others like this.
  4. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,527
    Location:
    The Land that Time Forgot
    LOL! I expected no less Dave. I knew competition, and a discussion of Tanfo vs CZ would be right up your alley. Regarding your short answer, I agree, figuring out what division I want to play in is the first step. Given the lack of shooting sports in my area, I will have to do some more searching and digging to see what is even available. This discussion may be moot. But I look at it this way. I like full size heavy service size pistols for a lot of different reasons. Even if competition falls apart for me, I am interested in owning one or more of these guns either way.

    So I've read this through, and I think I'm going to read it again before asking any more questions on these specific topic. There's a lot to consider there, and tangential questions will undoubtedly come up.

    Right now I'm inclined toward the Shadow 2 based on what you've said, but only because Tanfoglios do not exist where I live. I think I've seen three or four at gun shows in my locality, and they were all lower end models, not anything geared toward an activity like this. If I wanted a any of the models you've described, I'd be ordering blind. That could work out just fine, or be made to work out just fine.

    Is it safe to assume that you'd see the Beretta Brig Tac I mentioned as a really poor choice, given the heavier slide than a standard 92, and I think more importantly the aluminum alloy frame? I know Beretta just came out with a competition variant of the 92, but I have no desire to own it, and I do not hear about Berettas being shot in any competition.
     
  5. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    7,156
    Well, Stoeger won a few national championships with a Beretta 92, and I think Ernest Langdon might have won the first production nationals with one. It's certainly doable, but you are correct that they currently get little use. You could get pretty far along before that platform really proved any sort of limitation. I wouldn't buy one for competition, but if you had one it certainly wouldn't be a ludicrous choice for Production division.

    Bear in mind that anything you're shooting in production you're going to want a half dozen magazines for. Minimum.

    As for the grip size of the Shadow 2, you can get some big-*** panels for it. https://lokgrips.com/cz-gun-grips/cz-shadow-2
     
  6. TomJ
    • Contributing Member

    TomJ Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2014
    Messages:
    1,735
    Location:
    Illinois
    The question I have is whether there is a difference in support and after market support between the two. I know there are a lot of options for CZ. I owned one Witness, a Compact 10mm, so my experience with them is negligible, but it seemed like there were not as many options such as compact magazines other than the factory ones. Again, I don't know the answer to this but thought it is worth finding out before making a decision.
     
    460Shooter likes this.
  7. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    7,156
    There is a ton of stuff available for the competition-oriented Tanfoglios and CZ's alike. Lots and lots.

    Competitors aren't running compacts, so that's a totally different market.

    One can get a sense of some, though not all, of the stuff available for Tanfoglios at https://benstoegerproshop.com/gun-parts/eaa-tanfoglio/

    That is not, IMO, a reason to go with a CZ over a Tanfo, or vice versa.
     
    TomJ likes this.
  8. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    7,156
    460Shooter likes this.
  9. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,458
    Location:
    Florida
    You want to save some money and get a really "cool gun" that is also a great shooting pistol?

    Look at the Canik TP9SFX

    If I "needed" another 9mm I would buy one. A friend has one and it is great.

     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
    js8588 likes this.
  10. hoodfu

    hoodfu Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    135
    I've owned the CZ Shadows and currently have the Tanfoglio Witness Elite Limited. I prefer the Tanfoglio simply because it comes with a larger frame. The meat on my hand between the thumb and trigger finger is too fat for the smaller framed CZ shadow line, but fits the wider and larger Tanfoglio frame great. The tanfoglio's also come with huge safeties, so you can rest your whole thumb on there for extreme recoil control.
     
    460Shooter likes this.
  11. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    7,156
    Canik's are poly-framed, striker-fired guns with Glock-ish triggers - pretty darn different than CZ Shadows and Tanfoglio competition guns. They're getting some use in carry optics because some of their models are basically set up that way from the factory. Two of the guys at my club have them, both with iron sights. I've shot them a couple of times. The main thing I would say about getting one for competition is that they are very reasonably priced. In terms of actual shooting, the main thing I would say about them is that they are very reasonably priced. In terms of what I have observed of reliability from those 2 guns, the main thing I would say about them is that they are very reasonably priced.

    It is possible I have seen two individual examples best characterized by their price.
     
    460Shooter and tarosean like this.
  12. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,527
    Location:
    The Land that Time Forgot
    Man..... 3 hour and 20 minute round trip for the nearest club.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  13. tarosean

    tarosean Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6,473
    Location:
    TX
    Grab one of the guns you already own and go shoot a couple matches with them in different divisions. That way you can get a feel for it and which way you might want to lean towards.


    I did exactly that when I started. The only thing I owned that was legal for USPSA Production was a Glock 17 (I modify all my stock "off the assembly line" guns in some way). I shot production for several months with it and then decided I wanted to try Limited with a G35 that I already owned. Reliability issues eventually made me want to look at other options. I landed on a CZ TacSport and had some work done by CZC. That gun is friggin awesome. Although I will say small hands need not apply.

    LOL more akin to someone wanting to sell me a Yugo when I am looking at a Ferrari.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  14. tarosean

    tarosean Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6,473
    Location:
    TX
    thats nothing... You must be from the East.. :)
     
  15. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,527
    Location:
    The Land that Time Forgot
    Negative. Just was hoping for something closer. I suppose though, there’s not enough population or ranges to support more than one club.

    Maybe I could just stick to weekend events.

    East? Ewwww.
     
  16. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,527
    Location:
    The Land that Time Forgot
    I like that idea. Better to figure out if this’ll even work with a gun I own vs spending first.

    No small hands. I usually need larger than factory grips.
     
    ATLDave likes this.
  17. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    25,130
    Right.
    Your SW1911 assuming .45 is a USPSA Single Stack or IDPA CDP.
    Your VP9 and Beretta are USPSA Production or IDPA SSP.
    I know a couple of 10mm afficianados. They didn't last, 9mm is cheaper, .40 and 45 are better established.
    Most local "style" matches will be equally as feasible with those.
     
    tarosean and 460Shooter like this.
  18. tarosean

    tarosean Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6,473
    Location:
    TX
    I hear ya. All clubs I shoot with are between 1.25 and 2hrs each way. The closest match to me is a rimfire steel challenge one about 20 mins away. And I've never gone :what:
    (Schedule mostly)
     
    460Shooter likes this.
  19. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,527
    Location:
    The Land that Time Forgot
    Exactly. I'm at work too much. Though that's why I can afford to buy guns at all. So it's a blessing and curse all at once.

    I am working towards a very significant promotion though, and it may reduce me to a 40 hour work week, with much higher pay. This could open up the opportunity for more shooting time.
     
  20. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    25,130
    I am retired and single so I can do as I please.
    Range 1 indoor is 6 miles, GSSF and a couple of house matches, claiming to be setting up for IDPA.
    Range 2 outdoor is 13 miles, no organization, convenient practice for stuff I can't do on a lane.
    Range 3 outdoor is 22 miles, my old club, monthly USPSA unaffiliated and tribal match scored like IDPA.
    Range 4 indoor is 57 miles, weekly USPSA of which I am shooting one a month, may increase.
    Range 5 outdoor is 88 miles, monthly IDPA.
    Range 6 outdoor is 100 miles, monthly Steel Challenge. Also USPSA, but I don't make many of those, conflicts with other match.
    Range 7 outdoor is 135 miles, monthly IDPA. Also USPSA but conflicted. I will usually choose IDPA over USPSA.

    Health and weather permitting, I can do a LOT of shooting. I need a match fix at least once a week, plus practice.

    I used to do some rifle shooting, F class and BPCR but have gotten out of those. My usual partner has moved on to PRS which does not interest me.

    I have a van, so I am the designated busman for groups to out of town matches.
     
    I6turbo, Boarhunter and 460Shooter like this.
  21. JTQ

    JTQ Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,896
    Location:
    NW Florida
    Nothing wrong with looking for a reason to buy a new gun, but I'd think your S&W 1911, HK VP 9, and Wilson Beretta 92 would all be competitive in their respective divisions.

    Doug Koenig (even though he's now with Ruger) with an S&W 1911



    HK Shooting team using a VP 9



    BJ Norris with a Wilson Beretta

     
    Rule3 and 460Shooter like this.
  22. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,527
    Location:
    The Land that Time Forgot
    Yeah, I enjoy the Wilson/Beretta, and like I said, it has a nicely tuned trigger, so I think it might be a good experimentation gun to see if I enjoy the sport. I need to practice with it a lot more first though. Magazines aren't a problem. Got it covered.

    I know there were a bunch of happy Brig Tac owners out there when the gun was put into regular production, specifically because it could then be used in Production Division.

    That is a great source of fat CZ grips. Thanks for that. May be critical.
     
  23. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    7,156
    Yeah, if the question is "Should I get into competition shooting?" I would shoot something you've already got. I have seen people shoot their first matches with things far less optimal than any of those. Tuesday of this week a guy who only had 2 15 round magazines shot for the first time - including a stage with 34 required shots. The results aren't meaningful, but he could still tell from watching and shooting whether it was going to be interesting to him.

    If the question is "which of the competition-oriented guns should I buy for possible competition use and also enjoyment?" then see my stupidly long post above.
     
  24. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,527
    Location:
    The Land that Time Forgot
    It’s a combo question really. And I think you guys have helped me sort the two out in my mind.

    I’m still interested in picking up one or more of these guns even if I don’t end up competing. I still have to figure out if my schedule will even allow this.

    But I look at it this way. I can also buy several shooting trees and spinner targets, and a shot timer, and head to the woods. I can still compete with myself in a much more meaningful and measurable way than I have been. No matter how this turns out, I need to push myself beyond what I’ve been doing.
     
  25. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Messages:
    7,156
    You can do a lot with a shot timer, a few cardboard IPSC/USPSA targets, and a couple of lengths of 2x2 to serve as partial fault lines. Steel is nice and saves resetting, but you don't even have to have it to get very, very far. A little masking tape and some black paint, and you can make partial targets, too.

    Here's the complete library of USPSA classifier stages*: https://uspsa.org/classifiers Most matches will have 0 or 1 classifier stage, which goes into the USPSA classification system (loosely analogous to handicaps in golf). They are generally among the most stripped-down stages, with less movement and more direction than most USPSA stages. In many ways, they are really drills or exercises. Some are a pain to set up and require various specific props, but many do not.

    The great thing is that you can look up objective data about how well other people are doing on them. You could do a lot worse than picking a half dozen of these things and working them (with a timer and with a free practiscore app on your phone to do the scoring calculations) to death. You would likely enjoy actual matches even more, but this is not a bad way to start pushing yourself.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice