Danger Will Robinson!

[moooose102]

OK, I probably am not supposed to ask this question, so dont everybody freak out on me, i am just curious. has anyone MIXED two or more powders together to try and achieve higer velocities than any single powder? of course, i know not smokeless, just real bp and bp subs, or different bp subs only. and yeah, i am ABOSOLOUTLY NUTS! probably, even certifiable.

 

[Macmac]

I know of some guys that got the idea they could use duplex loads and triplex loads using both BP and smokless. It would be fair to say they boosted pressure, but only once and not in a very usable way..

Since real BP is the lowest flash point, and I run mainly flinter's that is all I use. I did try one of these "new" powdas and in a flinter it was terrible slow.

 

[Eric F]

If I may this is a practice that I have read of but not done. I have seen load data in print for a smokeless/bp mix stuff for a load os fffg and ffg ect. I do not understand the thinking on this but it does happen

 

[w_houle]

The problem with loading smokeless with BP is the fact that as little as one grain of smokeless makes the entire charge act like a smokeless charge due to the smokeless powder burning at a supersonic rate causing a small shock wave in the cylinder to cause the black powder to detonate rather than deflagrate. If you are talking about mixing triple 7, and pyrodex I don't know what the results would be but I still wouldn't think it would be too cool.

 

[Eric F]

I'm not sure about that. perhaps if the smokeless load goes in first. but if it is mixed I dont see how a

shock wave in the cylinder

could happen.

I should note that my post was in refrence to bp cartdriges

 

[4v50 Gary]

Walter Cline wrote about it (fine powder, rougher powder, patched ball) and used a mixed load for his 600 yard test with a round ball .53 caliber flintlock. He hit a man sized target 40% of the time with the misses being nearby.

 

[dogrunner]

When the .454 was first developed it used a DUPLEX load............but don't, don't play alchemist. It'd be sort of like mixing some alcoholic beverages. The result would be most unsatisfactory I'm sure.

 

[Pancho]

I personally would not try to mix powders in any of my cherished firearms and with my cherished face so close to the expieriment. If one had a barrel mounted in a test stand with all of the modern day equiptment to monitor the results I'd be interested to see the results but I think you'd be duplicating the work done by the powder manufacturers.

 

[MutinousDoug]

It is not uncommon to see BP used as an igniter for nitro based propellants in military pyrotechnic devices to speed up ignition. Consider though, that these devices do not operate at modern rifle cartridge pressures.
I experimented with using 5-10 grs of fff BP to aid ignition of the old Pyrodex powder without incident before giving up on that propellant in firearms.

 

[DixieTexian]

Just a thought here, but maybe you could mix some subs with real black to get about the same effect as black without using as much of it. That could come in handy if the real stuff is hard to get where you are from and you can't afford to mail order.

 

[rusty from italy]

Here in Italy some people use to load a small admount of smokeless in BP cartridge back the PB fully charge, he say that's help combustion and make less fouling!
I tried it one time in my 45/70 loads, i have put 3 grains of smokeless fast burnig powder for shotgun reload back an admount of 55 grain of FFG, i hav'nt seen no difference from a normal BP load, same smoke and same fouling, so i din't do it anymore!
20 or more years ago when muzzleloader came again on the market was very difficoult to find PB, many "new" muzzleloader used small admount of a particolar tipe of smokeless (i don't remember the name and brand) to load his rifle, so tell the oldest shooters in my club!
(in the first years of replica age the most part of the revolver sell in Italy was colt Navy blank fire or 9 flobert that was free selling in that age, the real cap and ball was't so know here, many people think today that the colt Navy was a breech loader why so was the replica here seen..and in movie too)
ciao
Rusty

 

[moooose102]

i was actually talking about mixing say: 50/50 triple 7 & pyrodex, or 33% bp / 33% pyrodex / 33% triple7, 50/50 bp & pyrodex. that kind of thing. i wonder if ANY bp gun manufacturers have ever tried this in a labratory enviroment just to see what woiuld happen. it might make for good reading from a bp shooting magazine, if they could get access to a labratory for a day. i am just natually curious, and i like to make things go FAST! but i have NO death wish either. i want to know what happens BEFORE i try experimenting with things that go BOOM!

 

[Niner]

Hmmm

Why would you want to? The thing about BP guns to me is that what does the work is mass not velocity. A chunk of lead doesn't need to go super fast. It just needs to go on a path that matches your aim to the target you are attempting to reach with a safe powder load of black powder or whatever made for black powder it takes to do this.

As to mixing them, generally I wouldn't because it defeats the purpose as stated in the first sentence.

However, if you read the label on a jar of pyrodex you will see a bit of information related to using real black powder in a flintlock at 5 percent and following it with a 5 percent lesser charge of an otherwise safe total suggested load of pyrodex. Not my favorite load, but looks like Pyrodex says it can be done to this extent.

My suggestion would be to forget velocity and think about accuracy with real black powder or a suggested load of the synthetic equal to BP.

 

[moooose102]

niner, aim and hitting the target (whatever it may be) is always the most important part of shooting. but more velocity = more knockdown power = less chasing the animal. since i am disabled, chasing a wouded animal is quite hard on my body. so i really like it when they actually "drop em where i shoot em". i have to hunt very close to where i park, and where the animal falls has to be reasonably close to an area where i can drive my 4x4 to retrive it. so if it wanders 300 yards into the bush, it is going to be a miserable day for me.

 

[Niner]

Good intent but think you are missing something.

My two cents worth is this. Velocity has some point relative to knock down power in small caliber steel jacketed or mostly steel jacketed bullets. I'll agree to that. But in bp guns, shooting lead bullets a half inch in diameter at velocities above predictable bp ones creates no added benefit. The mass of the shot, properly placed, made of lead and not jacketed, is plenty enough stoping power. If you could get any significant extra velocity, safely, by what you suggest, you are also, besides that getting extra shoulder jaring kick and the potential of striping the round from the rifling and thus making it less stable and less predictable in flight.

I would suggest that if you want a quick kill that you think more of what can contribute more to shot placement rather than velocity.

 

[moooose102]

1) i DO know how important shot placement is! i have never lost an animal, heck i have never had to chase a deer that i have shot more than 200 yards. 2) actually, i really hadnt thought about useing ALL LEAD projectiles. everything i have ever shot (except .38 special wadcutters at paper targets) has been jacketed. and at this point, i am shooting jacketed sabots through it. i guess my way of thinking is its kind of like sliced bread, yes you can still buy or make unsliced bread, but why would you? i have exactly NO experience with non-jacketed bullets, and in all of the shooting i have done more velecity = more kinetic energy = more knockdown power. i have LOTS to learn about bp shooting, that is the one thing i am sure of. maybe i will run a post asking what every one shoots and why. thanks, d.s. p.s. i am not trying to argue, but i want to add this, many years ago, my wife shot a buck with her 30-30 at about 65 yards. it hit the buck through the right front shoulder, one of the lungs and clipped one of the main arteries and the very top of the heart. souns like good shot placement to me. but we had to chase (after a 45 minute wait) that buck over a mile! it laid down at least 4 times where there were HUGE blood pools on the ground. it just didnt want to die. in fact, the only reason we did retrieve it was on a hunch. after it had bled out while walking /staggering it headed for and laid down under an apple tree. that was over 200 yards from where the last drop of blood was.

 

[oneshooter]

I use 5gr of 4f black with a 65gr charge of 2f in my 45/70 Sharps rifle. Ignition is clean and there seems to be less fouling.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[mec]

some people who use replica powders like pyrodex in their flintlocks put a few grains of real black in first to aid ignition. then load the pan with black powder. this seems to be a fairly routine practice

 

[Gewehr98]

I load duplex BP all the time.

5.0gr of WW231 under 65.0gr of GOEX Cartridge for my 500-550gr .45-70 Sharps loads. You'll see that type of duplex BP load very often when it comes to the big boomers like .45-70, .45-90, etc. The small charge of smokeless acts like a hotter primer. The NRA only recently decided it's not legal for BPCR competition. They allowed it for Creedmoor matches, but that's fine when I'm shooting by myself. For competition, I run straight black. I'm not a big fan of the blowtube practice or mopping the bore after every shot, so my duplex loads do a wonderful job of keeping the fouling minimized, while still producing a big cloud of white smoke. Velocities aren't too much different than straight BP, and that's perfect - I'm not trying to hotrod the round, just minimize fouling. The brass shows no signs of excessive pressure, and the bore looks very clean.

Duplex BP loads are as old as Harry Pope, lest we forget. Also, the Canadians have allowed and used 25% smokeless in their BP matches for years.

I have one Lyman reloading manual that even lists duplex loads.

 

[ThomasT]

It'd be sort of like mixing some alcoholic beverages.

And whats wrong with that?