dangerous dogs

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SaintofKillers

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So last evening I went on my usual nightly run. I enjoy running at night because it is much cooler out and less people out that I have to stop and talk to when I pass their house.

I carry a Springfield compact 9mm XD in my sweatshirt pocket and my carry permit in the other.

So I am coming over a hill and a large dog is running at me barking and snarling and such doing the things that dogs do when they are frightened or protecting territory and such. He gets within 20 feet of me and runs away.

I stopped running not wanting the dog to give chase and put my hand on my pistol in my pocket. I kept walking away from the dog when the owner comes out and begins to call the animal.

This is when the dog goes beserk and runs at me full speed barking and snarling. Red flags are going up because this is different from before.

I yelled to the owner to please control his dog and he stands in the doorway calling to him but makes no moves to stop the animal. At this point I removed my pistol and chambered a round and drew a bead on the dogs head.

I am guessing the extension movement of my arm frightened the animal because he then turned and ran to the house. I do not know if the man knew that I had a firearm or not because he closed the door the minute the dog was inside.

Now mind you this was not a Rottweiler or very large breed but more of a border collie type dog.

I am sure that some of you all have had similar situations happen to you and was wondering what you all thought of the situation.

I was thinking of calling the sherriffs office and letting them know that this person is allowing their dog to run wild. My fear is that one of my kids will be out riding his/her bike and get chased and or bit.

Not that it matters, I love dogs, have 3 of them including a Doberman, short haired collie and lab and the last thing that I want to do is kill a dog.
 
Pit Bulls are smaller than border collies and can seriously hurt you. No reason to think that a larger dog won't try. Border collies are also famously protective of their owners. Out here if the dog is on your property and being a pest (or you perceive it to be) you can shoot it. A public street might be tricky. I would check the laws but am willing to bet that you could have shot it with no repercussions other than a possible law suit from the owner.

I would go by the neighbors house and have a little chat about possible rules of engagement. Also start carrying mace if dogs are a problem. A liberal application will normally stop most dogs.
 
I had considered carrying a "repellent type spray" but am not sure what the law is regarding such.

I know I can carry so I had never really considered other options.

I have a good friend who trains dogs for attack work and he had told me that Border Collies are the most aggressive because of their obssessive behavior.
 
If I was in a neighborhood, I would have to be REALLY sure the dog was a threat before I would shoot it. My threshold would probably be so high that I would have to actually take a bite and then have him coming back before I would shoot him. A concealed firearm is supposed to protect you from imminent threat of death. Not a bite on the ankle. IMO, most dogs of that sort are unlikely to actually bite. I've had some very close calls with dogs where I was screaming and kicking, etc, but none of them have actually ever bitten me.

So the fact that I consider serious injury to be unlikely combines with my disinclination to fire an unnecessary shot in a neighborhood and that results in my reluctance to actually draw and fire. I can just imagine the immediate post shooting atmosphere. The screaming and yelling. The cops showing up. The children crying. Everybody all bug-eyed and looking scared. It's just not worth bringing that situation about unless you really do have no choice.

If dogs really are a problem, it is best to prepare ahead with something different. I've seen runners with golf clubs. A collapsible baton would be outstanding but you better be sure of your local and state laws! I'm not a big fan of mace for a dog. They move fast, they don't react much to pain, you have to watch the wind, etc. I would rather give them one hard smack with something and then they would leave me alone after that.

Or you could just run with your own dogs. My wife runs way out here in the country and she always takes a selection of our Belgian Malinois with her. Usually five but sometimes six. I watch her running down the road and think there's one woman who is unlikely to be attacked! By man or beast. She's had a few dogs come after the pack when she's been running and one of our males usually flattens them to the ground by their throats and totally intimidates them into peeing all over themselves. After that, they stay on the porch and bark!

Gregg
 
Tulsamal, Excellent post,

Carry a spray if only ammonia and water, I carry a cane at times, 1 1/4" heavy hard wood. Guns are for life threating situations not dog bites.

I was attacked on a job, inside ciyt limits, in a backyard once by a pit bull and German Shepperd with no one home. I was able to take the pit bulls lower jaw in my hand and control him while kicking the Shepperd away from me till I escaped. I had a 41 mag in the car and when they got out of the back yard and came for me again it was tempting but I managed to get in the car with only one serious bite. Puncture wound to my hand and 5 stitches in my back, but it was never a firearm situation IMO.

Living out of town a Pit Bull had my Aussie dog down and was killing him. I yelled and fired over his head and he didn't let go so I put one into his ribs. In a city I have about broke a 2X4 on a dog to stop a fight so different situations in a different places, it depends on where and what.
 
It may have taken the dog a little time to sense your willingness to call his hand.
He undoubtedly knew he was not in "his" yard. Extending your hand may have been what he needed to take pause on where he was.

If someone shoots my dog I hope it would be justifiable.
If my dog crosses the fence (not likely) and acts aggressively I might have to feel lucky I only have a dead dog.
 
I am guessing the extension movement of my arm frightened the animal because he then turned and ran to the house
Click to expand...

Yeah, you could have done the same thing by assuming a dominant position and controlling the dog verbally most likely. I used to have trouble with a few neighborhood dogs until I started "attacking" them when they decided to chase me. They stopped immediately, what a surprise. The dog didn't know you had a gun, it reacted to your posturing.

Also, I have serious doubts about the ability of most people to hit a small dog running full speed at you with the handgun you are carrying, especially at nightime. Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it, best to keep your lawyers and your gun in your pocket until you really need it. I'm sorry, you may be a crack shot, but leading a small animal at high speed with a subcompact pistol that has bulky iron sights at night (did you replace the normal sights with tritium? if not I KNOW you can't see them well at night, I own one) is not an easy thing to do. Better to offer it your off-hand arm and then dispatch it, then you have the threat part covered. A small dog won't knock you over and maul you if you properly set yourself, even my boxer can't do that and she has some spunk.

Get a can of good pepper spray or a purpose made dog repellant. The former doesn't always work well, but when the dog sees it coming they normally back off, again, they know who is in control. If the spray, in combination with you assuming the dominant behaivor, don't work then you should resort to your firearm.

99% chance, like most encounters (2-legged or 4-legged) you see cited, taking control will mean you don't even need to use your gun. Talk to the owner, then animal control, and then the police.
 
IF your dog comes at me bearing teeth, and he will bite me(or my kids), it will be dead before it gets within 15 feet of me(OR my kids)...Large dogs are life threatening, no matter what the loving owner thinks. and if you think youll defend your dead dog by trying to beat me up, remember, I still have my weapon out...USe your head.

Now, to be clear..were talking Pit bulls, Rottweilers, German Shepard..any large attack dog...if a yrkie comes at me, I got no worries.
 
Mainsail,

I only carry that way when it is not "holstered" not sure why just makes me feel more comfortable.

Presscheck,

beautiful dog. I have a female. Very protective,non-agressive. She is a very quiet and reserved dog but always watching and thinking.
 
PressCheck,
I would advise you to get rid of your dog, if it attacked someone and they shot it then see you coming at them... You'll be laying next to your dog!

If you own a dog it's your responsibility as the owner to make sure that it can't attack someone. If it does and they're hurt, you're gonna get sued BIG time! Or if your neighbors have reported it to the police YOU could go to jail.

Being a victim of a dog attack I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the dog (not that I would want to) and some wacked out owner for attacking me. The last dog that tried to bite me got a size 13 steel toe upside his head. If the owner had been around he would've got one to.:cuss:
 
SaintofKillers
Your friend who says Border Collies are the most agressive, must have a fever. I have been breeding and training them since '84, and I find them delightful. They love kids and most people, and are ready to retrieve cattle any time I send them.
 
  • Mixed breed and not pure bred dogs are the type of dog most often involved in inflicting dog bites. The pure-bred dogs most often involved in dog bites are German shepherds and Chow chows.
  • Dogs between one and five years old are involved in more dog bite incidents than dogs older than six years. Male dogs are more frequently involved than female dogs. Dogs not spayed or neutered are three times more likely to bite than sterilized ones.
  • Each year approximately 20 people die from dog attacks. The dogs most responsible for dog attack deaths are pit bulls and rottweilers. On average 67% will involve an attack by one dog; 19% by two dogs and 15% by three or more dogs.
Click to expand...
Source: http://www.wolf2woof.com/EDUCATION/FACTS.HTM
 
I've had so many dogs run at me when I've been out walking or bicycling the hood I've lost count. Never got teeth but most of the time (99%) the critter had me convinced he/she was about to let me have it. Several times the dog was big and scary as he--. but, in my experience, dogs are masters of getting right to that last mm of their personal freak-out zone before they stop or deflect. Unfortunately that's 3 feet inside the ring that constitutes the human freak-out zone.

I carried pepper in addition to the pill dispenser on my exer-trips but never used the pepper (came close on more than one occassion) and never dreamed of using the other on a dog. I have been tagged by dogs on more than one occasion but they were typically smaller dogs and I was fitting them with a collar on the 1st night of obedience class so it was up close and personal. You can't always read the signals :)

In my neighborhood it was easier to take the path of least resistance and change my travel pattern. I just decided the whole issue of having to stop and deal with Killer or Muffin was too much of a distraction to have to deal with in the middle of my outing. If that’s an option it’s worth a thought.

The whole idea of popping Muffin with a 380, watching same expire on the home owners property, dealing with the owner, dealing with the PoPos, being charged with discharging a firearm on to private property/near a habitation, finding out there was an invisible fence, being sued/being served, hiring a lawyer, paying a lawyer, etc. etc……no, I don’t care to ever get bitten again but I just don’t want to deal with all the above if riding the next block over avoids the matter altogether. But that’s just me. YMMV

Because I assumed there was always a chance I could be bitten I carried my cell. My plan was to call the police on the spot and get the owner stated on the process I outlined above....as the defendent.

Best,

S-
 
I've been attacked by several dogs, one was a 180lb(Yes, I said 180lb) Leonberger, who was very protective of my cousin. If that thing wanted to kill me, it could have. It was weird because he was usually very friendly, more likely to lick you to death than anything else. Thankfully he only knocked me down and growled, but it was still a very scary situation. Never underestimate how strong a dog can be, still, lethal force should be your last resort, unless it's going after a small child or trying to kill your pet. I've only had one dog not stop when I made it very clear by body language that I was going to attack it, and it got a swift kick to the head(didn't hurt it much, but it sure as hell didn't stick around).
 
A young girl I worked with a few years back was walking around the block for exercise when nice weather hit , she was attacked by what she described as an "Ankle bitter" the dog bit her in her calf and wouldn't let go and started shaking it's head back and forth until she hit it several times with her hand .

Despite getting immediate medical attention including antibiotics it became infected and took weeks to heal , it also did permanent nerve damage to her leg and she will walk with a limp for the rest of her life . She was a perfectly healthy 21 year old prior to this .

For people with PressCheck's attitude all I have to say is control your dog or I will , and you wont like the way I get it done as I refuse to be maimed or injured for the rest of my life because you are too stupid or to lazy to keep your animal under control .

MY dogs are on a leash as required by law when in public or in their yards or home where they belong and if one ever tried to attack a child or innocent passerby I wouldn't have a problem stopping them myself even if it meant I had to use a bullet .

This isn't a child's game people don't get DO OVERS in life and shouldn't have their lives altered due to your pets , if you want to own animals you have a responsibility to control them .

The old "I'm sorry" wont mean squat after your dog has ripped a kids face off !
 
A few months ago one of the neighbors from down the road came and told me that his pit bull was running around loose. I actually saw the dog a few times on my place but he seemed more scared of me than vice versa. Now, I wouldn't shoot to kill the dog on sight but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it if it got violent on my place. If it came close to me I would've tried to run it off first. I wore my gun on me for a few weeks after that.

I don't quite understand why people own pit bulls. To me, it's like owning a gun that might go off on you without you pulling the trigger.

A friend of mine had a black lab that ran off, and a few days later this dummy we knew called him up and told him he just shot a black lab that was chasing his little daughter, who was riding around on some little four-wheeler. That's pretty low to kill a black lab like that.
 
The old "I'm sorry" wont mean squat after your dog has ripped a kids face off
Click to expand...

You can apply your idea to anything in our society. Driving cars for instance. The fact of the matter is that we are talking about a full grown adult "battling" it out with, admitted by him, a small dog. What I see, no offense, is irrational fear of a dogs spurring the "shoot it!" attitude.

No doubt, a dog bite can be dangerous, but 20 fatal dog attacks a year.. I have to ask how many of them are against grown men jogging and involve non-dangerous breeds (as generally classified)? Are you really convinced you can make a case that you were in fear of your life? This isn't a 160lb attack dog rushing you, it is a border collie. Are the $$$ you will spend in court worth it?

Learn to deal with dogs appropriately, just like you learn to deal with 2 legged encounters that don't involve clear-cut deadly force. You wouldn't bead down on a bum running after you screaming so why would you do it to a small dog? If you think you can do the former, ask Harold Fish how that turned out for him. Do you want to take that chance? The truth is that you can, most likely, handle this situation by establishing your dominance and carrying the right deterrent for the situation you describe. Had Harold Fish used the right level of force, he wouldn't be in the situation he is in now.

The commando shoot'em attitude is ridiculous given your description of the situation. Talk to the owner first. If that doesn't work then call animal control and then call the cops if that is unsucessful. Handle it like a rational person; keep your gun in your pocket and your brain in your head where it belongs.
 
For the record I said it was a large dog but not a Rottweiler type dog. Pit bulls arent very large either but are still very dangerous when provoked.

There was also no commando shoot'em first attitude. If there was my story would have ended with a dead animal.

My dogs do not have free run of my neighborhood and neither should the people that live there, but I do not see it as my job to confront the owner for his animals behavior. If I did such and it escalates into a "situation" then I would be accused of going and looking for trouble.:rolleyes:

The dog, as I said, was on public property and running around loose. The dog was about to invade my safe zone.
 
Seeing how it was brought up....

I was the kid that had his face almost ripped off, I have had to live with a scar that runs from just above my ear down to the center of my cheek for the last 33 years! Plus a couple smaller ones where the dog bit me repeatedly until the owner got control of it.

I don't hate dogs or fear them, most are a product of their owners. I wouldn't shoot a dog unless I had no other options, if forced to do so I would beat the owner for their stupidity! Keep your dogs under control, in the end it won't be good for either side if something happens.
 
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